Why the .40 is Dead, Long Live .40

It all really boils down to the decline levels of testosterone in American men. Our great-grandfathers shot 30-06’s and 45acp’s. Our grandfathers .308’s and 9mm and our fathers 223’s and .380’s. The limp-wristed, left-leaning, freedom hating, crybaby momma’s boys of today shoot .17’s and 5.7…very sad.
I love seeing my 130lb wife call-out the wussyboys then out shoot them with her purple Tanfoglio Pavona glittergun in .40 S&W! However, she does shoot a .243 and a 20ga shotgun because she doesn’t have the strength to hold larger guns on target.
Leave the “hard kicking” .40 to the girls that can handle it!

The 9mm is ok for practice or shooting human beings. But for hunting, a more powerful cartridge is called for.

Come on! First compare apples to apples here. When you start factoring in you have to buy +P ammo to be competitive, you blow the whole theory of cheaper prices out the door as well as the longevity of the firearm and the recoil. Lower capacity mags is a legit reason to go with the larger caliber.

I love my 40 caliber Bretta Storm full size. I understand how some people cant handle the recoil. I have 2 9mm and my first 40 caliber was a sig and i coudn’t shoot the thing right to save my life. Yes i was hitting the target but follow up shots were hard. Now i traded it in for a Storm and i love the damm thing. Its not snappy at all it almost feels like my 9mm. I guess its personal preference but i really like my new storm. My 9mm are the springfeild competition 5.25 barrel with the 20rd mag and i own a S@W M@P 9mm with the full Apex kit installed with night sites and that gun shoots like a champ! The original trigger in the m@p was gritty to me but after the change it was a whole new ballgame.

I am 78 years old, in relatively good shape. I began shooting just four years ago and began with a Smith & Wesson .40 S&W. I have always had difficulty with the recoil on the .40 trying to realign the sights after firing for a second shot. I have recently changed over to the 9mm and experience a greater comfort factor when firing the 9mm.and a faster sight acquisition. I kind of go by what an instructor told me when discussing choice of calibers…”Better to have two good hits with a .22LR than two misses with a .45 cal.” I feel the 9mm is a good compromise for the senior citizen.

Everyone is an expert on stopping power but how many have actually shot something live? eh? I have. The 45 acp with the 180 grain bullets was an absolute failure when shooting deer. The 45acp even with 225 grain bullets lacked penetration especially as the distance increased. The 9mm with the 125 grain bullet killed deer with no problem with one shot, I repeat with one shot and its kill range as the distance increased far exceeded that of the 45acp. So much for the so called gun writers like Cooper who obviously never shot anything live with the 9mm or the 45 acp.

Agnes Herbert proved as far back as the year 1900 bullet diameter was irrelevant, rather it was bullet penetration and placement that were the key to 1 shot kills. Pistolero magazine in the 1980’s shot live hogs at point blank range and found that the 45acp was no better than the 38 special, 357 mag or the 9mm. So much for the myth that bigger is better.

The U.S. Military found in 1945 the 45 acp was an absolute failure when it bounced off a helmet at a scant 35 yards while the 9mm penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards. So much for the 45 acp myth.

i have a glock mod 36 .45, i do not understand the references to the recoil. i am a 71 yr old veitnam vet, 101st airborne. the noise is the problem, not the recoil. i consistently hit a 3′ target at 50 yrds. if you cannot handle the recoil of a .40, you need to go to a gym. this glock has a very short barrel. good carry weapon. i am not going to ” shoot out the barrel”. we are not going to engage in fire fights every day, hopefully.

Read article below about FBI tests, going back to 9mm first.

So here is the BLUFF (bottomline up front). The FBI and certain police forces creating a buzz about going back to 9mms with the argument is that 9mm are better is nonsense. They are not better, they are a better compromise.

Its about 3 things: 1. big money contracts for pistols, ammo, ammo supply chain, training and new equipment for said choice. 2. Lack of training, and the inability for men and women to properly handle the .40 round, or other more effective cartridges. 3. The shooting industry wanting to create a stir and debate to sell you more, new stuff. No different than the magnum rifle craze decades ago for deer cartridges. When it comes to a tool, I need in that rare instance to save lives or take lives, I am going to err on the side of caution and go with a proven manstopper. Sure, a .22 can be a manstopper, i know its all about shot placement, right?

Read article below first.
Answer me one question. What is the gain, significant or small that would require such a change? I love how they skip over the specific, quantifiable, common sense or cost-benefit analysis data. Its simply a waste of tax dollars.

Dont disregard the civilian market that will revolve around this narrative that now 9mm is better…better than what? Which started about a year ago in all the gun rags hawking there benefactor’s new 9mm pistols. They all want to jump on the band wagon to increase sales and profits, so instead of the need driving the industry, the industry converts perception to create to drive the need.

If the premise is new ballistic advances make the 9mm a better round, couldn’t that same logic be extrapolated to ALL suitable defense ammo options? Yes, but theres an agenda here and it’s more graft, sell you a new popsicle, garbage! And the shooting industry is more than glad to go along with it.

Why not go with .357 sig with 125jhp? Wait, isnt that like a 9mm but with near .357 mag ballistics, you mean the same .357 mag that historically in police shootings produced the highest one shot stops of “any” suitable defense round. .357 mag achieves 98-99% one shot stops with 125 jhp. The next best was the .40 s&w with 135jhp speer gold dot, ranking in the mid 90s. A 9mm in 147jhp only at best achies mid 80s one shot stops. (Read on way on and ill eventually do the math there). Ive been using and carrying my .40s in the 135jhp speer round since the early 1990s. Now, for LEO work, I use the Hornady TAP 175g for its all around ability, especially on barriers. Quit lumping all .40 rounds in together, a 135g is not the same as a 180g they are almost two different rounds. All cartridges typically shine with one or two loads, in the .40 the apex of velocity, ft lbs of energy, bullet design and terminal effects all reach an apex with the 135jhp as does the .357 mag with a 125jhp. Quit comparing apples and oranges.

I want to see the data From the FBI tests, that clearly delineates a cost benefit analysis for the change and expenditure. Im sending this to my congressmen. Its fraud, waste and abuse. It wont stop with one federal agency, it will spread to all of them coating 100s of millions of dollars in the decades to come. Im surprised they didn’t cite the anemic enthusiasm in which the military keeps the 9mm as just cause. Im kidding. The military hates it, its the generals and lobbyist, getting graft from the contracts and that the supply chains are established that keep it. The military hates the 9mm. Real shooters rarely use 9mm unless constrained to do so. Let me just stop you right there: my bonafides to make that statement are very deep and broad. Former SOF operator, Former LEO, Former SOF weapons and tactics developer, etc…ad nauseaum. Funny, same with HRT comments using HK 416’s over standard M-4s and .45s over 9mms. Same as special mission units. Why? Cause when you need to kill a bad dude, not just wound him, but take him out of the equation, this stuff works. Its that simple.

Conspiracy alert: Maybe they want all law enforcement to be UN/NATO 9mm compatible so when the blue helmets show up on rodeo dr, the supply chain will be 9mm only.

Another point of waste. So, what about the billions of . 40 ammo the fed bought two years ago? Conspiracy number two. Or, just fraud, waste and abuse. Maybe, well start supplying freedom fighters with our unwanted .40 cal pistols and surplus ammo. It damn sure wont be sold to the public.

I say give LEOs the option of of a few selected, different firearms in different calibers. Give a list and a firearms and ammo allowance. Decentralize the issue, get ride of the problem and debate. I hate being constrained by some “Mary” that cant handle his whiskey so to speak and needs milk.

-friendly tinfoil hat wearer
-WR

Advances push FBI back to its former 9mm bullet choice
Saturday – Oct. 31, 2015
By The Washington Post

The FBI is returning to the ammunition caliber it labeled ineffective and blamed for the deaths of two of its agents during a 1986 shootout in Miami: the 9mm jacketed hollow-point luger.
In addition to the new bullet, the FBI has decided to purchase a new pistol to fire it, something that could be in the hands of the bureau’s approximately 13,000 agents by 2016, according to bureau officials. The decision could have far-ranging implications for local law enforcement agencies because they often model their procurement decisions on those made by the FBI.
The bureau dumped the 9mm bullet after the Miami incident because it failed to penetrate far enough into the gunman’s torso.
The shooter, former Army Ranger Michael Platt, went on to kill two agents and wound a third. Though Platt was shot multiple times, an autopsy revealed that he died from the first shot — one that penetrated his chest cavity but stopped just short of his heart.
In response, the FBI fielded a new pistol round, one it hoped would have better penetration: the 10mm. In the following years, the 10mm was ditched in favor of the .40 S&W, a stubbier round that could fit into pistols designed for small calibers.
The .40 S&W is a law enforcement favorite, but after recent studies on new 9mm rounds by the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility, the 9mm is slowly finding its way back into the hands of police officers across the country.
According to FBI Special Agent Ray Cook, the unit chief of the FBI’s Defensive Systems Unit, the bureau, which continuously tests various types of ammunition, began considering a return to the 9mm round in 2007, in part because of advances in ballistic technology.
“During our testing, we found that the (9mm) rounds used in the Miami shootout tested the lowest on our scale,” Cook said in a recent interview at the FBI Academy, referring to the bureau’s ballistic standards and testing methods put in place following the shooting. The new 9mm round — known to gun aficionados as the 147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2 — is significantly more effective than what FBI agents carried into the field in 1986. According to Cook, the bullet has been rigorously tested and has received high marks in the FBI’s most important category for bullet selection: penetration.
Cook says that the lighter the bullet, the faster the gun can “drive” the round into the target. For the FBI, that translates into 12 to 18 inches of penetration into the human body. The 9mm’s weight, Cook added, also increases an agent’s accuracy in a gunfight, according to the findings of a 2014 FBI report that was leaked online last year.
According to Cook,the bureau’s ability to research and test weapons in ways that other law enforcement agencies cannot gives it great sway over many police departments.
“When we do something, local departments take note,” Cook said. “They see that if it works for us, it’ll work for them, too.”
For Jorge Rodriguez, a police officer in the Houston suburb of Baytown, Texas, his department is testing the idea of going back to the 9mm for many of the same reasons the FBI is leaving the .40 S&W.
“The 9mm has changed,” Rodriguez said. “The FBI report came out and basically affirmed that the 9mm isn’t a weak round anymore.”
The Los Angeles Police Department recently transitioned from a Glock .40 to a Smith & Wesson chambered in 9mm, while the New York Police Department issues a hollow-point 9mm round to its duty officers.
In early October, the FBI issued a request for proposal for a new pistol, a contract worth up to $85 million. Cook would neither speculate nor comment on what firearm manufacturer the FBI might select.
In 1996, the FBI adopted a Glock pistol chambered in .40 S&W and since then has fielded a number of variants.
The FBI’s elite Hostage Rescue Team (HRT), however, uses other weapons.
“We are on a completely different program,” one senior HRT operator said, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the team’s arsenal.
It includes using Heckler & Koch 416 carbines — a favorite of top-tier Special Operations forces around the globe — as well as an array of different pistols. The HRT’s armorers, however, are among the 11 technicians who maintain the rest of the bureau’s weapons in a building basement adjacent to the FBI Academy’s Jefferson Dormitory — known as the Gun Vault.
The vault is half safe and half armory, a place where the bureau stores approximately 7,000 firearms and a place where the bureau’s 60,000 firearms — from pistols to sniper rifles — are maintained and repaired, according to Kenneth Fennema, the FBI’s lead gunsmith.
“These are imperfect machines though,” Fennema said. “They break.”
The armorers who work on the bureau’s weapons are a mixed bag of prior military and old hands who have been with bureau’s weapon program for decades. For Al Neff, 61, an armorer who has been with the bureau for more than 40 years, he sees the FBI’s change to a new but older caliber bullet and the adoption of a new service pistol as a mandatory evolution to stay up with technology.
“We want to see what’s out there,” he said. “We want to make sure that gun goes ‘bang’ every time.”

Read more:http://triblive.com/usworld/nation/9358453-74/fbi-bureau-bullet#

Another thread about the 9mm debate.

Subject: A rather dubious story: Full of holes!

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/guns/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round/

1. Yes, all premium ammo has improved every caliber.

2. If the argument is less 9mm rounds are needed now, why do we still need higher capacities akin to 9mm. Which isn’t true anyway. So for example a G17 vs a G22 round difference is + 2. Really! If i need 2- 9mms for every forty round I’m actually at a deficit of -2. I guess this argument may be answered best by the now deceased jeff cooper: ” a pistol is there to shoot your way to your rifle”.

3. Velocity is what delivers kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock. Their argument, not mine. Ok, so then why isnt the 357 mag with king shooting a 125jhp at 1,500fps its a well documented one shot stopper at over 550 ft lbs of energy. one shot stops in actual shootings stopped the subject 98/99% of the time with 1 shot. The .40 cal with 135 jhp at 1,350 does it 96+%. At its highest, the 9mm 147jhp leo ammo does it at 86% but typically most 9mm rounds barely break the 80% mark at all. Im confused! Why should i stop using a .40 with 135jhp ammo? Or 155/165jhps at low 90% That closely mirrors the venerable 357 mag in one shot stops and energy, penetration, wound channel cavitation and hydrostatic shock for a 9mm?

4. Funny, 25 years ago or so, the FBI said the 10mm was the best after the Miami shootout debacle but females couldn’t handle the recoil. So, hence the .40. Which on paper is a compromise. In reality its about as much a compromise as the difference between poison ivy vs poison oak. Semantics! Unless you want a 6″ barrel 10mm to hunt hogs. Again, .357 mag with 158 jhps at 1550 from a 6″ beat it in velocity and energy. So yeah. Good for hogs also and black bear with 180 or 200g cast core. Whats my point. I digress.

Wouldn’t a 454 casull even be even better? That would penetrate some auto glass barriers! 40 is the best compromise capacity, velocity, energy wound diameter, accuracy, recoil, platform selection between the ends of 9mm and 40. It doesnt denote compromise in effectiveness. If a 45 is better cause its 1/2 diameter why not shoot a .75 argument? Well they dont make one. But weight 14rds of 45 vs 14 rds of .40 adds almost a 1/2 pound. And yes recoil. I can shoot a .45 fairly well but definitely shoot a 40 better and faster on 2nd, 3rd follow ups. Not necessarily the same 40 and 9mm. Yes, more practice and training with a 45 would yield better results i have no issue with 40 or a 45. No argument.

No, the issue is again crappy, insufficient training, wimpy shooters in a PC environment where we just want to stop the threat not kill the threat. If you allow it lunatics come full circle as they are left chasing their tails.

With training almost anyone can shoot a .40 as well if not better and faster than a 9. Evidenced by my 67 year old mother not being able to shoot a 380 but given training was able to one-hole my .40 cal browning hi-power like any relative professional. BTW, the .40 Browning hi power was originally designed for the 10mm auto.

Im not debating 40s and .45s. Personally they both have their merits and i don’t consider either one better or worse they are different and i defer their selection to personal choice and the myriad roles each can fill depending on mission and environmental factors, shooter ability, size, platform etc….

But, 9mm is king….pure b.s!

Debate over.

Ill be keeping my .40 thanks.

I will defer to ex-FBI agent G. Gordon Liddy’s ubiquitous quote (referring to Pope John Paul II), “If the 9mm was an effective round, the Pope would be dead”. He is dead, but from old age, not the multiple rounds he absorbed. And with a wife who is a nurse, she concurs that there are plenty of gunshot wound survivors with 9mm, not so much with “bigger” calibers. Pretty much says it all.

Interesting, Yes.

I have over 20 guns and one of the only ones I do NOT possess is the 9mm.

In my opinion, the 9mm has too fast of a muzzle velocity to the point that the bullet has too much speed to spread upon impact, going through & through, thus not causing enough damage to limit discharges at target.

Then we end up explaining why we had to shoot ‘multiple’ times to a cop or a jury, because they’ve watched too many Hollywood movies when EVERY victim goes down with one shot…

And THAT is why I’ll never own a 9mm

I can’t believe I actually read all the above comments. Some were good others not so much. I agree compared to my full size 226 tac ops and 45 1911 my slightly smaller 9 feels snappy. My 92fs on the other hand does not. I have more than one of all cal mentioned in the article and find the 45 the smoothest to shoot. I love my full size double stack 15+1 40 though. Anyone who has shoot many rounds of both will tell you the 40 just feels deadlier in your hand. I don’t know why anyone would have an issue with the recoil either. I think it’s a great round in full size frame. I understand some folks just have small hands and a 9mm 92fs is too big for them. That must suck. I would hate to miss out on comfortable shooting large cal hand guns. My favorite gun to shoot is my Colt Anaconda in 45 long colt. Smooth as silk. My home defense go to is 1911 45 loaded with black talons, car defense is 45 long colt snubby, and hunting 40. The 9’s are fun but stay in the safe most of the time. As far as wear goes, really? You get what you pay for. A good gun cost more, usually weights more, and doesn’t rattle when you shake it. As many above have said carry as big as you can. For you smaller folks I suggest carry a little bigger than you are comfortable with. You want notice if you ever have to use it and will be glad for the extra mass. The 40 is a reliable, accurate, great stopping power round. It ain’t going anywhere. If you have bug hands and can handle a big gun an have shot a 40 and didn’t smile afterward than your gun sux azz.

I realize the internet is full of bloggers who must write about something to fill their allotted space and give their followers something to read but this article just begs for dissenting comments based upon the writer’s lack of accurate or specific facts to back up his assertions. Having been a municipal and federal law enforcement officer for over thirty years and, a firearms instructor for almost all of that time, I found the article interesting, not entirely accurate mind you, but interesting. Let me comment on the high points first; The cost of 9 mm versus .40, especially in these current times of relative plenty, are not debatable. The recoil of a typical 9 mm personal defensive load versus the .40 may be more controllable, as long as you consider all other factors (handgun type, weight, barrel length, etc.). But as soon as you start factoring in compensatory aspects of the 9 mm for it to compete with .40 ballistics, such as bumping up the 9 mm load to +P or +P+, you begin to blur the lines a bit. As we all know, you can vary the components of a load (charge weight, weight/mass/type of projectile, etc.) to plus up or scale down a specific caliber’s ballistic performance and capabilities. Now, to the article’s questionable aspects; The author takes great stock in the FBI’s recent announcement that it will be returning to the 9 mm as the “standard” issue. This announcement was made after the FBI tested various caliber’s and claimed to have found “certain” 9 mm loads to have performed as efficiently as other, larger calibers. The two pertinent details here are “standard” and “certain”. Anyone who has worked closely with the FBI knows that the agency’s carry policy is quite liberal, in that, as long as the handgun fits certain criteria (action type, manufacturer, caliber, capacity) and the Special Agent carrying the weapon can qualify with it, they can carry it in the field. This policy may vary by Field Office but, by and large, if you walk through a typical F.O. you will see a variety of handguns, by manufacturer and caliber, carried by the SAs. Also, of note, the FBI HRT and the regional/FO HRT units still carry the .45. The other reference to note in the FBI’s testing is the comparison of “certain” 9 mm loads to larger caliber handgun rounds. I think most of us can recall a few years back when, in the aftermath of the Miami shootout with bank robbers Michael Platt and William Matix, the FBI proclaimed the 10 mm as the supreme law enforcement caliber and commissioned S&W to adapt their model 1076 to the FBI’s preferred “ballistically reduced” 10 mm round. The FBI adopted a modification of the designed 10 mm load which reduced of the 10 mm’s charge weight to make it more manageable to the average SA, in effect creating a round with the ballistic performance of a .40 in a 10 mm casing. The results of the modified load were predictable, unacceptable performance in a S&W pistol designed to handle full 10 mm loads, and the design was abandoned. The FBI eventually adopted the Sig Sauer P228. in 9 mm before later moving up to the .40 in Sig and Glock models. The FBI has a history of adopting and endorsing a caliber based upon the “manageability” of the round and has tried to modify the loads of the adopted caliber to meet that objective. Just a few decades ago the FBI Special Agent cadre was overwhelmingly male but, that demographic has changed dramatically over the years and we now have an effort by the Bureau to ballistically tailor the 9 mm in order to find a more “manageable” load that SA’s across the spectrum can shoot accurately. While there is nothing wrong with utilizing the wide range of loads available to derive the maximum results in ballistics and accuracy, I take exception to the declaration that there is a “one” ideal and superior law enforcement caliber. Especially when we have proven that a wide range of ballistic capabilities can be found in the varied loads available across the span of the commonly accepted LE calibers (.38, 9 mm, .40, .45). Finally, I have yet to see any scientific ballistic data which disproves the basic law of physics, that velocity (fps) x mass (caliber) = force (terminal ballistics/terminal trauma).

I don’t agree with your article much at all. The 9mm is cheaper, but as for the recoil, the .40 is better in my opinion. The 9mm is a very snappy round. Also, many police agencies have moved from the 9mm to the .40, because the .40 has more stopping power. I don’t think the 9mm is bad, I just think you’re arguments concerning the round are totally accurate. I would much rather have a .40 any day. Better recoil and better stopping power.

The article says basically that modern loads for the 9mm are such that they perform well enough for self-defense purposes, so you can keep your “nine” and not bother with larger calibers, especially given the ease with which the “nine” can be mastered.

On the other hand, if you’re wedded to the .40S&W, that’s cool because it ain’t going anywhere soon.

No caliber is really dead as long as someone likes it. Period. I like .45. My wife likes 9mm. No worries either way. If the .40 is what you like, then use it. Law enforcement is constrained by a lot of things besides effectiveness. Cost, availability, ammo capacity, etc. all figure into it. The average for LEO hits during shoot outs is 15%. And this includes everything from sniper shots to LEOs shooting dogs. So the FBI went back to 9mm. Big deal. If you like .40, use it. I like .45 and nothing anyone says will change that. My wife likes 9mm. Nothing anyone says will change that. So what?

The USA’s official military hand gun for umtine years was the 45, The Germans decided the 9 mm was the best. The Germans had everything right as far as technology. Only problem was we the USA stole all their great Physic’s. I personally would not use a high mag 9 over a 45 in personal protection. I used to combat shoot and those that brought 9’s were considered as PU–ys
All the years I took my carry permit test live, I used either my series 70 colt or my Khar 45 and the instructor was amazed at how accurate I was with my Khar at 50 feet. I was very POed that the Gov gave the contract to the Italians for the Berreta over the American made Colt. It still pisses me off to this day.

Ive been law enforcement for 26 years, My duty weapon is a Glock 22, my CCW weapon is a Glock 19. This is clearly a personal preference issue. The Question being what caliber do you think you can handle comfortably to get the most shots on target? If your a .40 guy and you shoot it well, great. People take this so personal, its a tool on your tool belt. I feel that I could get more shoots on target with a 9mm, thats just me. My family also enjoys shooting My G17 over my G22. So my home defense is my G17. What ever you choose, get familiar with it, Get lessons and get shooting !!!

It just ain’t so.. I own several 9mm and .40s hands down I would rather and do carry a 40. Ask my detective friend what happened when he had to shoot a man with his 9 mm six times to put him down so you better have high cap mags with a nine you will need them. Thank God he hasn’t had to use his now issued .40 but I doubt and so does he that it will take 6 rounds from the .40. I know that bullet type and other factors take place in stopping power but what would you want to be shot with??? 9 mm or .40? I know my answer.. Just like the special ops group operators say never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber weapon. I guess I would rather have a 9 mm than a 380 . Not trashing the 9 the Germans killed a lot of people with 9s just not my chose.. Aim small and shoot first what ever you carry

At one time or other during my career I carried : .45 ACP, .357 mag, 9mm, .38 Super, and .40SW. I kept a .455 as a ‘house gun’.
I never felt at a disadvantage as any of them would do ‘the job’. I did carry a .38 spl as a back-up to the .357 and the .38 Super, though. The other calibers I just carried a smaller version of the primary weapon for a backup.
I’ve seen folks shot with just about every handgun from a .22 and up (no .44 magnum, though).and for all of them it ruined their day.
The only ‘instant stop’ I ever saw were two that took a 12 guage to the head at close range, one with a .357 to the head, and one with a .45 to the head.
The guy with the .45 in his skull was still alive when he was transported to the hospital… probably a ‘veggie’ if he lived, but I wasn’t interested enough to check on him later.
Now retired, I carry an itty-bitty Sig .40 or a P226 .40, depending on the weather. Once in a while I drag out the Sig .45, but not very often.
Really, anything you can hit with will work, although I prefer something 9mm or larger. I still don’t feel ill prepared for whatever.
When reading publications or listening to an arm-chair warrior, take it with a grain of salt. Deer can run off with a solid .30 hit and drop instantly with a .223. Deer don’t watch TV, so they don’t know they are supposed to curl up in a ball and give up. The FBI Miami shootout bank robbers were like wild animals in that they weren’t afraid of being shot, so they were harder to put down.

The two primary reasons the FBI elected to migrate from the 40 to 9mm were first that the 9mm, with some of today’s premium ammo supposedly penetrated more deeply than the .40. Second, was the recoil issue. Wear was just additional justification required by the government bureaucrats to justify spending a bunch of tax payer dollars. In today’s world of limited LE budgets, I doubt too many departments are going to run out and just buy new service guns and ammo just because the FBI decided to switch. And, when they do, they’ll be selling their old guns to get money to buy the new ones The 40 is going to be around for a long time. This is a Ford/Chevy argument. Some folks just like larger and/or faster bullets. Look at deer hunters: some will hunt with 243’s and think that’s all they’ll ever need. Others think they need a 300 mag of some description. The mags of course shoot heavier bullets faster with a lot more recoil but some just want the larger, more powerful gun. Let’s not forget that before the FBI and most law enforcement agencies bought their 40’s they did “extensive” and “exhaustive” “research” on it vs what they were already using. What changed?There have always been hot and +P 9mm rounds available. There have been some advances in bullet construction and technology, but that applies to the 40 as well. If the recoil from a 180 gr 40 cal bullet is too much, why not go to a lighter bullet that oh, by the way, will be screaming out of the barrel at velocities much higher than a 9mm and give lots of penetration? I think somebody decided they just wanted new guns because the agents don’t practice enough, there are more women agents who probably don’t like the recoil and the wear issue is just another added excuse. I like, own and shoot both cartridges in various models of guns. But if I want to stop a bad guy, much as in hunting big game, a heavier, larger caliber bullet moving the same speed or faster is what I want. This 40 to 9mm move is just another example of government waste and bureaucracy in action.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Moderation. Fat chance my comments will make it through to your public, although I’m sure you will turn me into homeland security or somesuch phoney org like that. Too bad, the Secret Service has already got me on their list. God bless you. Long live Free Armed Americans! God damn the pinko, fatherless offspring! Death to oppressive government operatives!

The only thing I shoot in semi-auto is the .22 LR. For larger cals I like the .380 in auto and standard .38 Sp Smitty lightwieght if I’m in church and may have to gun down a militant because it won’t usually go through a head or torso and harm someone else where as the 9 and 40 will. Also the lightweight Smitty is more comfortable and doesn’t inhibit raising of hands in praise like my Ruger .357 Security Six used to do. Out and about, gimme the .357 model 19 or Ruger Security Six, even the .41 cal Smitty. They will shoot through car body and windows in road rage incidents. For shopping, I like to take the .41 because it will drop a big bad doped up, charging Huk or Rodney King in a heartbeat. One shot, one kill, double-tap not necessary, though desireable. 9 mills are okay, I guess, but if you are going to pack a semi, nothing beats the .45. Another great stopper for charging Huks and doped up Rodney King types. 9 mills are for carrying large capacities into Social Sevice Offices and gunning down goverenment employees, or for settling disputes with the county government offices, for sure, but I like that little, tiny M16 looking thing with a 30 round capacity for that when it becomes necessary. I mean, if. We are so blessed in America with the ability to gun down governmental types that overstep their bounds. If more people did that, we’d have a more circumspect civil service, and respectful legislator, wouldn’t we. And for situations like Ferguson or Watts, only Americans are equipped for that kind of action. Been waiting for decades for the queers or Mohammedans to storm a church I’m attending. Nothing like slaughtering with the joy of the Lord in your heart, eh? Nothing worse than being subjected helplessly to those scumbags. Guns are the answer to our problems in America, as the forefathers intended. Without guns, we are not free, and the primary use for guns is the maintenance of a free state. God damn the liberal man.

There are a lot of untrue facts in this article and no cited proof of such untrue claims. It has been proven .40 cal Glocks are almost indestructible. It has been researched, tested, and proven that .40 cal has more one shot one kills in its short life than the .45 cal that has been in existence for over 100 years. Please get some facts right and stop spewing opinions.

I really think this is just an opinion piece by a person that is recoil shy. I will continue using my .40 and .45s as 124gr. 9mm cannot compare to 165gr. up to 230gr. If I am going to have to shoot someone in defense of my life or my loved ones then I want them to stay shot as all too often I have read of people getting shot with 9mm’s that keep on going. And as far as accuracy, my main go to gun is a Beretta PX4 in .40cal and at 25 yards I can shoot bottle caps off of empty water bottles. My other favorite is a .45 Kimber Ultra light. My wife who is 5’5″ and 125lb. shoots both without any complaints about recoil and I have asked to which she remarks she didn’t even notice recoil with either gun. So, if you are a limp-wristed liberal then you should stay with a 9mm or maybe even go down to a .22 so you do not hurt your hand.

Well, if you have participated in a comparison of 10mm, .40 cal (10mm short), 9mm (basically a .38 cal), and .45 cal, the 10mm and .45 cal (testing including 9mm +p+ and .45 cal +p) you would have observed that 10mm and .45 cal are the ONLY ones with enough kinetic energy (and then some) to knock down a pepper poper (a metal reactive practice target made of .5 inches tool steal mounted on a heavy base and meant to toppled over when sufficient force is applied).

In my opinion and experience (and many others too) using standard hard ball military .45 Cal ammo with a 230 grain projectile fired from a 5 inches barreled handgun in my case a 1911 platform will SLAM this metal target to the ground very hard (you do not even need the +p ammo. Using 9mm 147 grain standard ball fired from a Glock with a 5 inches barrel, caused the target to move. To slam the target to the ground with a 9mm 5 inches barreled Glock to the ground, you need to do a double tap.

There is much more to this discuss, but this all the time I have.

Ricky

All this bandwidth being burned up for a handgun round? Some pistol rounds have come close to the .357 mag for one shot stops. However, no single handgun round is 100% effective for one shot stops. That means multiple rounds for an effective stopping of hostilities. Rifle/shotgun rounds are better at that sort of thing. They’re just a pain to carry concealed.

Also, which round would you rather launch from: inside a vehicle; a hallway, or outdoors… without hearing protection AND at night? Which round could you launch multiple times, in rapid succession under those circumstances?

For the EOTWAWKI/SHTF, I don’t know if I’d want to bag a squirrel with a .40 – there might not be too much left worth eating.

Regardless of caliber, so many factors to consider…

The person who invented the Detonics carried a Glock 26 for his EDC. That’s what worked for him at that latter stage of his life. I know this to be true because he was my friend. He was also former UDT/SeAL. During that time of his life his EDC was a .45 and a whole bunch of C4 and det cord!

Whatever works best for you, for whatever reason and circumstance is what works best for you.

This article and all replies just proves why all 3 calibers in question are still manufactured in high qty, and reminds me how lucky we are we still as of now and as civillians have the freedom to own any of them and choice of all of them!! Whatever you prefer lets all keep our eyes wide open and support the NRA and fight tooth n nail to keep one of our most important aspects of our freedom! We have a whole new generation being pandered and brainwashed in schools and colleges as we speak to rebuke our American History , Pride and Values. If it seems like there is a mob after our 2nd amendment rite now? Just wait til this whiny, history hating , pandering brainwashed, racebaiting generation in training at the moment are filling the political offices that are already unraveling our great country as we speak! Above all be law abiding, responible and safe gun owners and lets prove that our 2nd amendment right is even more legitimate than it was upon creation! Nothing is more damning than ignorant fools like this Dear guy who shot up the planned Parenthood baby body shop and thus played us rite into the America hating left wing Liberals agenda! Im thankful for my freedoms everytime I shoot for enjoyment or look at my home defense gun just knowing I have the freedom to feel safer in day to day life! For the record I shoot well and prefer .45 in most pistols, unless its a sub compact or conceal gun and I carry 9mm and 357 sig in that case. But I have been shooting rifles and pistols since I was a kid and over 30 years so my preferance in no way is valid compared to a novice or 1st time gun owner that is prolly the biggest factor. Not even how many guns ya have owned but how many ya have shot and how much ya have shot. It is like writing it becomes second nature no matter what kinda pen your using but some write like I want them to better! God Bless the USA!!!

I agree with DocWilcox above – I changed FROM a 9mm to .40 because I found the 9mm to have a sharp, snappy recoil, verses the .40’s push. As a competitive shooter, I could stay/return on target more quickly with the .40. Using personal defense ammunition, the .40 far exceeds the 9’s effectiveness…

Bigger is better when it comes to stopping a threat. If you can’t handle the recoil, then who opens your pickle jar? You guys sound like a bunch of women. It’s proven in real world application. SWAT uses .45 cal and .40 cal for a reason. Carrying more ammo in a 9mm is good because your goimg to need more ammo to stop the threat.

After reading all, and keeping in mind everyone’s opinion, like and dislikes, and personal feelings. For a few years due to the job I had I carried a 380 cal hollow point because in a crowd I didn’t have to worry about it traveling too far. But also carried 5 mags, the reason for that is if I was out working somewhere I could fire enough rounds to at least scare the bad guy. I have a friend, who is a police officer, and who was forced to shoot his police dog with his 45. After 6 shots, knocking the dog down 6 times, and while he was loading the second mag the dog walked up to him still growling and wanting to attack then fell dead. That change my mind about the 45. The 9 is like the 380 not enough punch. Which I will mention now I went to a junk yard and out of curiosity shot at a door window, windshield, and door skin. Went through door window, failed to make it completely through windshield only stopping at interior glaze for the windshield, went through door skin denting the interior panel. This was all down from about 20 feet away. Yes the 40 does have more recoil, and with constant practice some of this can be corrected as far as aim. Police do not get enough practice which I think need to be changed. I purchased a 40 SW and right now I have 3 mags which will change. I plan on keeping more ammo too. At a later date I plan on a shotgun and a rifle. I used to own 3 380’s, a 40, and assault rifle. had to sell all due to financial problems and ain’t forgot since then and that was 15=20 years ago. I agree with others, when I shoot I want them down and dead, period. I liked the article because it caused thought and opinion.

Good article and I was looking at .45s the other day for a friend of my son. There were very little .45s, a few 9mm, and a load of .40s and I think it may be more price of ammunition than anything else.
Have a great day!
God Bless the USA and Springfield Armory!

During the last 2 years or so, at my friend’s Massachusetts LGS, 9mm models of handguns have been selling about 3.5 to 1 versus the same model in .40 . At least anecdotally, I would suggest that in a restricted capacity People’s Republic, 9mm is cleaning up there too. Furthermore, 45 ACP is running a close second to 9mm from a popularity standpoint, typically purchased by (although not always) by more experienced shooters. Take this for what it is, just my thoughts and observations.

Shades of the past, this argument has been going on for decades..back in the 1960’s it was the mainstay article in all GUN magazines, except then it was ”9mm vs 45acp”. I believe when the crap hits the fan most people will go with what is handy, hence the popularity of .380 rounds and variety of .32 cal weapons on the market..I happen to favor a variant 9mm, the .357sig,now you’re talking.

The FBI report in which they claim the 9 mm is a better round for LEO’s is just the same report made 20 odd years ago in which they concluded the 40 was a better round. The only difference is they reversed all the conclusions made then by 180 degrees.
Maybe the fact that they now have many agents who are small in size with little hands has something to do with this reversal.
Absent a vital hit, bigger deeper holes make a quicker stop.

One other thing that was forgotten in this article, is the fact that if you shoot someone once with a 9mm you will just piss him off. A 40cal will bring him down.

The REAL reason the FBI is going 9MM? The anti America, pro terrorist in charge – is having pro-UN, limp wristed types – RAKE OVER OUR Government! If successful – remember, even “they” must go somewhere to eat. Stay away, “they” will be targeted for THEIR weapons! Anyone notice the CIA directors email ended with PRAYERS = Muslim references to the Koran? He, 19 Generals, the POTUS, Department of Homeland Security, etc. etc. are mostly from the “peaceful religion” (SIC).

If the “New” FBI magic bullet driving the new handgun contract, why don’t they eliminate 75% of the projected cost and just buy 9mm conversion kits? The FBI new pistol solicitation is very much like the Air Force wanting to get rid of the A-10 Warthog (which has killed and destroyed more then the rest of the Air Force inventory combined). Its old and ugly BUT VERY EFFICIENT AT WHAT IT DOES.

There are several states that have “type” bullet restrictions like NJ that bans hollow points. It only takes the stroke of a pen to add the latest and greatest magic bullet from your legal use. You might want to keep your bigger caliber handguns!

Good opinion article but lacking in supporting facts.
40S&W Wear and tear is worse then 9mm handguns. So what? Search the Net and provide a link of one wearing out. Don’t we get more wear from a alloy frame and steel slide? Again so what. Have any LE Agency wore out their issued 40s? Nope. What percentage of civ users are going to shoot enough rounds that the wear will cause a failure?
Lastly, some major handgun manufactures specify a factory inspection at 5000 rounds. The FBI never qualified their wear and tear comments. Surely the faster 9mm wears our rifling faster then the slower .40. Notice the FBI NEVER said 40S&W handgun failure or wear to the point of failure. No, just more wear then the 9mm. Anyone who has worked Gov contracting knows you need sufficient justification to make a significant purchase. They want to replace their handgun inventory, they padding the facts? Why was this wear and tear issue not a factor when they looked at the 10mm to replace their 9mm? Oh, it didn’t fit what they wanted to buy!
If a shooter can’t handle 40 recoil in a specific handgun, they need something else (gun/cal). This is not the calibers fault. Reliance on magic technology bullets to equal or be better then .40, how about buying those bullet types in .40.
Are you going to stockpile all that spendy magic 9mm or buy regular .40 and get more rounds per dollar. There is a lot of blogger hype being used on the .40S&W wear and issue, show me the facts. I don’t know of any lawsuits for failing .40 handguns. Blowups are predominatly user induced, find one caused by wear and tear. People badmouth .40 mag capacity compaired to the 9mm. If this was a defining issue only full size pistols would sell. The meat of the capacity issue is do you prefer ballistic performance of 9mm or .40 BALL ammo and if you prefer the .40 is it worth the capacity difference. After that you can decide on magic bullets or mag extentions if desired. Many LE Agencies will blindly follow the FBIs handgun, caliber and cartridge final choices. Same with a lot of civs that blindly follow like lemmings to the tacticool flavor of the week.