Super short 8.5 inch, and legal, too.
Last week, we opined about the ATF’s ruling on a certain shotgun being used with a SIG brace. The ATF, in a letter to Black Aces Tactical, clearly stated that shouldering the SIG brace (the way we all currently use the SIG brace) makes the gun subject to restrictive legislation. Well now we know which shotgun Black Aces was inquiring about. The Black Aces Tactical DT.
To be clear as mud: this isn’t an NFA item. It isn’t an AOW. It is a gun like most other guns, and one that you can buy without meddlesome paperwork or extra fees. We’ll be following this story, so stay tuned. In the meantime, what do you make of it?
From Black Aces Tactical…
Presenting the new Pro Series 5 DT. We’ve waited months to be able to announce this offering and now it’s a reality. Pictured here is the exact prototype that we’ve submitted to the FTB. It’s not a weapon…it’s a revolution and here are the headlines:
– Short 8.5″ barrel
– Pro Series 5 mag fed receiver base
– ATI Talon stock with pistol tube adapter
– SIG SB15 brace
– Billet safety
– Bespoked barrel clamp
– Billet magazine tube
– Billet 5 sided multiposition action tube
– Magpul rail
– Magpul RVG
– Choice of (2) 5rd stick, or (1) 10rd stick magazines
– CHoice of cerakote colors
– All ATF letters included
– No AOW or SBS NFA stamps required.
– No 6-8 month wait
We’ve received our letter from the ATF and we have been instructed that our short barrel 12 gauge with the SIG brace is in fact classified as “firearm”. What’s that mean to you, the consumer? A lot. It means that you can now have your SIG brace equipped mag fed Pro Series 5 built and shipped to you in lightning fast time, not 6 – 8 months as you would an AOW. It mean there is no tax stamp, and no hassle. No AOW, no NFA. Not a pistol, not a shotgun, not an SBS, not and AOW, strictly firearm.
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Where can I purchase one of these shotguns?
Dear Sir. I have a Mossberg 500 that I got on a trade. It came with 3 barrels. An 18 1/2”, a 24” ”Slugster” non rifled, barrel with rifle sights, and a 28” trap/skeet ribbed barrel with 2 chokes. It also came with a heat shield and a Mossberg pistol grip. And wood butt stock and forend. It’s appoximately 28-30 years old, according to the friend I traded, as he bought it new, and also Mossberg. It’s what Mossberg calls a ”Combo Kit”. Since it came with a pistol grip, which I don’t like the looks of them either on the Mossberg or the Remington, I cut my wood butt stock just aft of the pistol grip portion of the butt stock, and refinished it to match the wood forend. And it is well over the 26” OAL limit set by the ATF. It’s actually 30″. My 2 questions are: Is it legal, and if I cut the 28” ribbed/vented barrel down to 16”, still with an OAL over the 26” required length, would that be legal? It’s not necessary that I cut the 28” barrel, but if I can, it would look really cool, as it would be even with the magazine tube. Please let me know, I’d really like a definitive answer on this. Any help you may provide will be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Sincerely, Jay Andre
This isnt legal advice, just my opinion, but from a federal perspective you can cut the barrel to 18″ no matter what (18.5 to be safe). 18″ is the federal length for shotguns (rifles are 16″).
In your case you cannot go below 18″ on that gun. It has a stock. Any firearm that was transferred with a stock is either a rifle or shotgun. The guns being built with these non nfa 14″ barrels are neither rifle nor shotgun as they start as pistols or simply firarms that never had, nor will have a stock. Since yours had a stock, even removing it doesnt matter, it was a shotgun so it cannot go back.
If you want to build one with a 14″ barrel, first consult an nfa attorney, then either buy a virgin receiver or a new pistolgrip ahotgun like a mossberg cruiser…but not the combo, if it comes with a stock, even though not attached its too late.
Best option just buy a mossberg shockwave with factory birdshead…
What about the pistol the judge it has a 410 bore shell
Its technically a rifled 45 colt pistol. The fact it can chamber .410 shot shells is just a happy coincidence, but since the barrel is rifled, its a pistol. If it were smoothbore it would be an AOW. Its never considered a shotgun.
If this is legal &can be owned without a tax stamp be its considered a firearm….than can i purchase a 8.5 barrel shotgun even if the laws in my state 18inch barrel only??
Consult a local attorney. Technically its not a shotgun from a federal perspective, but at a state or local level the definition or intrepretation of a shotgun may be different.
Is this CA legal?
California legal? Yeah, right.. what is?
Is TTC Performance Products and Eric lemoine on the up-and-up? I heard some negative comments about him on other forums,especially with this short barrel pistol offering.
just wondering.
thx
An affirmative action hire has to have written that letter from the BATFE. According to the very definition of the law he’s quoting, a “pistol” has to have a rifled bore. Which lets in all the stockless and SIG-braced short-barreled rifles (which are “really” pistols, by a very squint-eyed reading of NFA and GCA ’68).
I mean, letters from this guy at BATFE are all well and good, but when the guys in black kick your door in at midnight for owning one… I think they’ll hold your letter in one hand and light it with a Zippo with the other hand.
quit yur belly aching just pay the 200 get one thats real and shut up.
Bullseye on that!
The ATF will make more in fines and confiscations than the $200.00 pittance they charge for class 3 permit.
JMHO
They want rifling so they can trace bullets to it. As for the shoulder arm guard. I agree it’s a matter of time before they make it illegal, for that matter all guns, just give them time. We have too many stupid people in this country who take freedom and equate it with FREE instead of sacrifice which is the true cost of freedom, this generation today is not willing to sacrifice anything except freedom for free stuff and false promises of utopia Dumb dumb dumb….
I’m missing something. You can’t have a smoothbore pistol (it has to have a rifled barrel). So if this is supposed to be NOT a long arm but rather a 12 gauge pistol with a wrist brace (not a shoulder stock) how does it qualify as not an NFA firearm?
H&R was going to put out a single-shot break open pistol (I saw the prototype at the Shot Show about 4 years ago) just like their single-shot shotguns except it would be in pistol calibers. Basically a competitor to the Thompson Center pistols. I called the company about what calibers they would be offering and they said that the BATF urged them to NOT produce it because their shotgun barrels would fit and people could easily install one and cut it down and then have a smoothbore pistol.
So, if the BATF is so against a non-rifled pistol (or revolver) how is this thing OK?
Looks like a Hollywood movie gun to me.
I’ll stick with my ATI pistol grip adjustable stock 7+1 870
No BS & proven.
I’ll take a VEPR or an AA12 for my SG battles, LOL.
VEPR;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fMfzN5LZc3o
AA12;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FJR2PNzRyDg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WOoUVeyaY_8
Except.. we can’t own an AA12 thanks to the “great” Ronald Reagan. Check out the MKA1919 and the FN SLP MK 1, I love mine
It’ll take just ONE Jack hole with a mental defect & hair pin personality to use one of these in a fit of rage to close this loophole forever. Knee jerk legislation.
Be careful. Some states, Washington for sure, outlaw anything like this. WA law prohibits anything made from a shotgun that has all the features of this.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289114
You want to contest that in court? A guy was arrested in Seattle recently for carrying a GOLF CLUB. I carry a heavy walking stick but I avoid Seattle like a plague
So u cant own this type of weapon in the state of washington .8.5shotguns even if the law states only 18inch barrel shotguns
I’d bet a steak dinner that this won’t last. The ruling is obviously resulting from an overly technical reading of the statures and violates the intent of the law. In other words it’s a loop hole that will be closed. I would be surprised if the fix isn’t retroactive. I wouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket on this one; the ATF isn’t going to allow a 8.5″ barrel magazine fed shotgun to remain unrestricted despite any semantical arguments.
I agree. The letter is scary dumb – the weapon it legitimizes “was never assembled as a shorgun” but to be that short and not be an NFA item,, it would have to be a pistol – with a rifled barrel. Of course, Mossberg just introed a shottie with a pistol grip and a 14″ barrel which is 29″ overall, and supposedly can be owned without special paperwork or a note from your local head of law enforcement, so I’m officially confused.
The new President and the Congress we’ve had for a while now could do us all a huge favor and rationalize Federal gun control so anyone could understand it. No more arbitrary definitions of a “sporting firearm” versus an “assault weapon.” No more magic numbers for overall length, barrel length, or pardons for felons who touch a firearm, or lie to a dealer to try to get one. No more snares for honest people who want to sell their personally-owned weapons without a dealer’s licence.
Mr. Trump was elected partly because of idiotic nonsense like this – no one really knows what the law says anymore because it is enforced by arbitrary regulations which don’t come close to the intent of Congress in enacting the original law. If a guy at BATFE wants to make the law less onerous, fine. Let this person talk to his Representative and Senators and change the law. I don’t trust “letters from tbe BATFE” because the bureaucrats who write them tend not to send copies to Field Offices, and midnight, no-knock raids by rude strangers in black camo result.
The page that says if you shoulder the SIG brace your a FELON now???
Yeppers……I dont know of ANYONE that doesn’t shoulder their SIG brace. Now we have an OFFICIAL statement ment dated and all from the ATF laying it out there in black and white it’s a felony to do so.
Was gray area before but these “innovative” type companies keep point I g tbe light on things. Someone remind me why I cant get cheap 5.45 x39 ammo anymore???
Notice the company will include a copy of the letter which officially lets you know that the second you shoulder it you can e arrested. Same letter you’ll dismiss and throw into the round file. Next time you see that letter will be “EXHIBIT 1”
You need to add the ATF letter page 3.
I agree…….Page #3 and all other pages if any need to be posted also.
It has been confirmed now, The SB-15 pistol brace is now officially the loophole device 😛
I never in a million years thought that the ATF would possibly consider this a Firearm like the over 26″ OAL pistols.
I guess the ATF is getting tired of all these regulations too! Pretty soon we will have suppressed machineguns legalized because they had a Sig SB-15 pistol brace attached! Bwhahahahah! but seriously I just gotta hand it to these manufacturers innovating with new technologies!
I’ll be leaving my wife for this. Kid can stay. Someone’s got to reload right?
On a serious note; a hell of a victory. With the advent of these braces ect.; I can only hope that these series of “victories” aren’t disheveled by an incompentant agency with a history of mood swings and uncertainity. Reason again for leaving the wife…. 😉
You just have to love a Company that thinks outside BATFE’s Box! They out designed BATFE LAWS RULES AND OPINIONS. WELL DONE. We have this (soon), pump action Modern Sporting Rifles, bump fire stocks, Sig Brace, and “Bumpy Trigger groups”. Now we need a bump fire Sig Brace!
I only have one issue with your comment; why does everyone try to change the acronyms that have been in place forever & a day? It is the ATF; not BATF, or even BATFE. People call the Commander in Chief the CIC. Again, it’s wrong. He is CinC (pronounced sink). There are many others out there and all it does is make things confusing for EVERYONE! This is why the English language is the ‘hardest’ language to learn for those who are not born in the USofA (see how STUPID that sounds). I mean if you look up at the letter sent to Mr. Lemoine, They properly spell out the agency name and put the CORRECT acronym immediately after it. FYI, almost always (98% of the time) the acronyms consist of only 3 or 4 letters if not making a word, such as ATF.
Other than that, I thought your comment was outstanding.
Uh, what? It was generally called the ATF back when they were just Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and many people still call them ATF. But many people also abbreviate it BATFE now, given the “new” name (since 2002).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives
I still like to call them F-Troop, myself.
I just call them “Obummer’s Brown Shirts” (or “Obummer’s Brown Shi*ts”)!
ATF is more like initialism, since it’s not technically a three letter word. Similar to FBI and CIA. Acronyms are pronounced as words, like OPEC and SCUBA.
Please read up on Language: A key mechanism of Control by Newt Gingrich.
Co-opting, Changing the meanings, and Reclaiming language with the aim to slant it, allows you control the message. See: Propaganda.
Get a life Mr English major! You write a column about government initials when the article is about a gun? You must live a life with nothing to do but follow people’s grammar. Spell Check would most likely change it and make wrong anyway.
IIIIIII…….Like it! :{)