[EDITOR NOTE: Please see our followup review on this gun “Find the Malfunction“]
During the course of this review, I asked Black Aces Tactical’s Eric Lemoine what DT stands for. “DT stands for Delirium Tremens,” Lemoine replied. “Back in November, when we announced that it was going into production and we published our ATF letter, the shockwaves that it sent across the internet were profound. The AR community was not pleased. So that weekend, as we sat at the bar, we thought the appropriate name of the weapon would be DT, considering the tremors and horrors that it was sending across the community.”
Introducing the Black Aces DT
Black Aces Tactical isn’t a household name. Yet. They don’t have the longevity of Colt or the pedigree of Browning, but we think the Black Aces brand will grow because these guys are building guns that no one else even dares to develop. The best example is their redesign of the classic the pump shotgun, the DT. With their billet receivers, removable magazines, and pistol grip stocks, these shotguns are the Ferraris of pump guns.
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Looking for a compact 12 gauge? Check out the Black Aces DT.
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8.5″ barrel and a folding adapter for a Sig brace. And it doesn’t require any extra paperwork.
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Black Aces has also brought to market a gun that seems to defy law and logic. The Pro Series 5 DT is an 8.5” barreled Pistol grip “gun” that does not fall under NFA restriction. Utilizing a (fixed or side folding) SB15 Arm Brace, the DT falls in to the murky category know as PGO (pistol grip only). We will get into the legality of all this later, but what you need to know is this gun is legal for you to own with no NFA strings attached. And if that weren’t enough, the DT is beyond bad ass.
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Features
- Short 8.5” barrel
- Pro Series 5 mag fed receiver
- ATI talon stock with pistol tube adapter (side folder optional)
- Sig SB15 Arm Brace
- Billet Safety
- Despoked Barrel Clamp
- Billet Magazine Tube
- Billet 5 sided multi positional action tube
- Magpul RVG
- Choice of (2) 5 round magazines or (1) 10 round magazine
- Choice of Cerakote color
- All ATF letters included
- No AOW of SBS NFA stamps required
- No 6-8 month wait
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The DT from the business end.
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The DT starts with a Mossberg design, but moves way beyond the typical 500.
Design
Built around the Black Aces Tactical hybrid pump action billet receiver, the DT is a purpose built scattergun. The gun feeds from Saiga 12 magazines and drums, making its capacity whatever you want it to be. 3 round sticks for hunting, 20 round drums for range fun. It only fires 2 ¾ shells, so you high power 3 ½ or 3 inch magnum guys are out of luck. Birdshot, buckshot, slugs, flares, less than lethal–the DT will eat them all up with out a second thought. The DT is built like a brick shit house, so you can expect this gun to function reliably for a lifetime.
The biggest part of the DT’s design is its short overall length. It is built to meet a minimum length requirement of 26 inches for a PGO (pistol grip only shotgun), technically it is considered a firearm by the ATF. We will go more into detail about what a PGO shotgun is and where it falls exactly in the ATF’s eyes.
The DT utilizes a cut down Mossberg 500 barrel measuring in at 8.5 inches. It is then teamed up with an ATI Talon pistol grip stock system that uses a pistol buffer tube and Sig SB15 Arm Brace. This brings the overall length to 28” and 19” folded. As far as the ATF’s concerned, a firearm is measured from extreme ends–so a folded Sig brace is good to go.
Even with the 8.5″ barrel, the DT is still not a short barreled anything.
Legal Perspective
Before I go any further, let me make this clear. This is not an NFA weapon. There is no stamp required. This gun is legal in the ATF’s eyes, but not every state feels the same. New York and California restrict the gun. The other 48 are good to go as long as you find an educated firearms dealer who is willing to transfer you the firearm. You may also want to carry a copy of the supplied ATF paperwork that comes with each gun in case you run into someone who is not convinced.
What it isn’t
The DT is not a SBS (short-barreled shotgun) nor is it an AOW (any other weapon). If you want to do the research for yourself, here is a link to the ATF’s NFA Hand book.
Even though it fires 12 gauge shotshells, it isn’t a shotgun. Don’t let the nomenclature confuse you.
For those willing to take my word, here are the abbreviated definitions supplied by the ATF that are relevant to this weapon.
Short-barreled shotgun: A weapon modified from a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches long.
The key phrase there is “from a shotgun.” In other words, it had to be a traditional shotgun first. And a shotgun is a gun designed to be fired from the shoulder.
Any Other Weapon: A weapon manufactured without a shoulder stock that is less than 26 inches in overall length.
For shotgun type guns, this means that they have never had a shoulder stock attached to them. So they’re not shotguns.
Firearm: By legal definition the DT is considered a “Firearm.” In the ATF’s definitions, a firearm (at least in this sense) is a gun that has never had a stock that has an overall length of at least 26 inches.
Though we call it a shotgun, it is not legally defined as a shotgun. It is simply a firearm. Confusing? For more information, read up on the history of the National Firearms Act here.
Or read this review of a PGO Mossberg 500. It covers a lot of the same ground.
The DT is compact enough to be easily concealed.
What it really is
The DT isn’t just a weapon, it’s a revolution, it changed the way we perceive guns that shoot shot shells. With its development we can chop 10 inches off of the normal shotgun, incorporate the folding arm brace and roughly lose another 10 inches off the firearm and find ourselves with package that is the same size as a normal shotgun’s barrel.
Shooting the DT
Shooting the DT is an experience! The recoil is modest, the muzzle flash is more reminiscent of a cannon, and the percussion that you feel every time you pull the trigger is similar to being inside of an explosion. Will any of this stop you from enjoying every second of your trigger time? Hell No! Every shot you take with the DT is a shot of adrenaline. It’ll put a smile on your face–guaranteed.
When you actually run the gun, you begin to appreciate the generous tolerances of the action bars as they keep the gun from binding. You begin to appreciate the speed and ease at which you can reload the gun. You notice that the magazine release is precise and easily actuated with your off hand or your trigger finger. The magazines fit to the receiver with little play while still inserting eassily. The DT is built like a Swiss watch where it should be and built like an Ak47 where it needs to be. Out of the hundreds of shells I fired (both brass and steel rimmed) I had no jams, no malfunctions, no problems what so ever.
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Rock out the magazine.
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Rock the new mag back in.
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Reloads with the DT consist of a click when the pin falls on an empty chamber. Rack the slide. Drop the empty magazine. Rock the new magazine into place and close the action. It all happens very quickly and is smooth as silk. It is not as fast as reloading a GLOCK, but a hell of a lot faster than re-stuffing a magazine tube.
Can you actually hit anything with it?
Though it has a short little barrel measuring in at 8.5 inches, the DT is capable of putting lead on target. Realistically we accept that we are short 10 inches of barrel, and a cylinder bore choke away from a modest group, but the DT is actually capable of consistent and somewhat tight patterns. From 7 yards, Estate 00 buck patterned a 4 inch group. Moving out to 15 yards, the DT put down a 7.5 inch group with 6 of the 9 pellets hitting inside a target. Moving to slugs, I repeated the test at 7 yards and was able to put 4 Fiocchi low recoil slugs into a 1.5 inch group. Again moving out to 15 yards, I was able to put 4 of the Fiocchi slugs into a 3 inch group.
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Buckshot from 7 yards.
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Buckshot from 15 yards.
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Inside of 25 yards the DT is capable of making consistent hits. The obvious choice for me is to run slugs in this gun. Moving outside of realistic shotgun engagement distances, the DT suffers from a decent drop in velocity that makes buckshot inconsistent. And long range work with slugs requires a bit of Kentucky windage.
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Slugs from 7 yards.
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Slugs from 15 yards.
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Ergonomics of the DT
The DT is designed to be comfortable to shoot. It has padding built into the pistol grip, it has a Magpul vertical grip that is offset to the left, but able to be positioned at 4 other locations around the action tube making the gun ambidextrous. The gun also has an ambidextrous magazine release and safety.
The DT takes all of the good traits of the Mossberg 500, combines them with the capacity and quick reloading of the Saiga 12, and gives it to you in a package that is well within the size of a normal shotgun’s barrel.
One shortcoming of the weapon is that it doesn’t come from the factory with any accurate way to place shots. It has no sights. It is drilled and tapped for the addition of a standard Mossberg 1913 rail. The assumption here is that you’ll top it off with some sort of red dot. I picked up an inexpensive rail for $10 that did the job. On top of this rail I put an old Primary Arms Microdot that lasted right around 200 rounds before the glass shattered out of the front from the percussion.
Still. Adding an optic to this gun is a must. The addition of a PA microdot allowed me to accurately place slugs on human sized target with ease out to 50 yards and inside of 20 yards it made shots with slugs as precise as with a full sized shotgun. The addition of the red dot sight took what would most certainly be a range toy and made it into a functional working gun.
Conclusion/ Should you buy one?
In an effort to perfect the DT, Black Aces Tactical is launching a new model called the DTR in early August 2015 that will address the lack of mounting surfaces on the DT. The model designated as DTR fixes the problem of mounting optics and or lights/lasers to the DT. Constructed form a single piece T6 6061 aluminum the RB7DT quad rail acts as both a mounting surface and as a barrel shroud protecting you form the inevitably hot barrel while you are blasting away at the range. The DTR retails for $1328 making it roughly $150 more than the DT.
Even without the extra mounting space, the Black Aces Tactical DT is a shotgun evolved; it redefines what is capable and legal from a pump action shotgun. If you are looking for the next cool toy, force multiplier, or work gun–the Black Aces Tactical DT might be the firearm for you. The DT comes retails for right around $1200, it is available for sale directly through the Black Aces Tactical website as well as online on GunsAmerica from one of our many dealers.
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When folded, the DT fits inside this 5.11 backpack.
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The DT isn’t flat, but it is compact.
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“The other 48 are good to go as long as you find an educated firearms dealer who is willing to transfer you the firearm”
Actually, -1. Ohio has a definition for SBS that doesn’t match the federal one – a barrel <18" means SBS.
Fantastic ideas ! I am thankful for the analysis . Does anyone know where I might be able to grab a sample ATF 4473 (5300.9) Part 1 version to use ?
This might be a good brush gun if you get surprised by a bear or boar in the woods. I would prefer a 3″ shell for a 500+ gr slug, but, still beats a .45 or 9mm for self-defense or Taurus Judge if you get attacked by a big critter. Probably not the best for a pack of wolves, unless they are the two legged variety.
Check your facts. According to the sales staff at Black Aces, the Saiga stick mags and drums (i.e. Promags) do not function reliably in the DT series. They are selling their own mags. Maybe a deal breaker for me.
You are 100% correct. They start with a Saiga mag but replace the follower (and possibly other mods), I Purchased one of these “firearms” as did a good friend. We were on pins and needles as I awaited it. Sadly that was the end of the excitement. I have better then 150 rounds through mine and have yet to have a full mag without a failure to feed or a failure to eject. I have ran low base, high base, bird shot and buck. The firearms seem to HATE them all equally. My friend has had the EXACT same results although he has a lower round count. Worse was when I contacted Black Aces to address the issue they seem to have little concern for the short comings of their product. The sad fact is these folks have taken 2 EXTREMELY reliable platforms in the Mossberg 500 and the Saiga mags and managed to make a shop project that looks cool but can not function. I was considering buying a new mag (the 5 round) and seeing if this is a mag issue and if that would “clean it up”. After my communications with Black Aces I am EXTREMELY reluctant to put more money into a poor investment. As I type I am $1258 in to a Mossberg that I do NOT trust.
That took talent – to start with Mossberg’s very reliable 500-series action (I’ve owned two 500s over the years as security weapons, with never a feed issue) and create a weapon entirely for security work. Umlike my 500s, you can’t hunt with this one, and sport shooting is limited to engaging silhouette targets at the range, a bit embarrassing when everyone around is using weapons which require a midicum of skill to hit black paper with, and there you are throwing five to ten inch-wide patterns with every shot. Paying well over $800 extra for the privilege of something that won’t fire reliably out of every clip you feed through would tick me off, too.
Maybe not for combat but perfect for home defense
$1400 plus…no fkn way
FYI, Be sure of what you want to purchase, they will hit you with a 25% restock charge. In my case the weapon had not been built, I was told the parts for assembly had been pulled from inventory. I asked if I changed my order to a different weapon, the response was I would still be charged the fee. I was told this information was on their website, I missed, mainly because its under F.A.Q.’s #11.
What’l Dae Tink “O” Next …….. a 12 Ga. 200, Water round 6 inch, shotPissstalblowgundart set ??????
A BUBBA HUM YUM !!
As I’m reading the comments I notice the “molon labe” on the side of the page and I wonder. Why are gun guys so quick to jump on each other? Most every gun guy thinks the whole Sig Brace ruling is a fiasco, but…someone maybe let’s one touch their shoulder on video and the same gun guys are calling “Felony” in progress. We are truly our own worst enemy.
I’m a pussy when it comes to firing Shotguns. I cringe every time I pull the trigger of a 12 GA. 18″ pump action and that’s firing it with the proper stance cheek & shoulder position! LOL! This Black Aces is just insane. I’ll stick with my shorty AR & AK THANKS
Each to their own. I’ve fired 12 gauge since college, never had an issue with report, recoil or cringing. My first outing with a 12 was skeet shooting at the range out by Ryan Airport in Baton Rouge, with a borrowed Remington 1200, and I actually managed to knock two out of three clay pigeons with the first three shots I’d ever taken with a 12 gauge shotgun. A lot of that was doubtless due to the excellent condition and fit of the weapon – nicely made buttpad on the stock and the weapon itself was in immaculate shape, very well cared-for. And I was 6’2″, and in prime condition from six months of daily roadwork and weights. But along the road to my present relative physical decrepitude, I’ve used nothing but 12-gauge in hunting and other sport shooting, and never had issues with flinching, cringing or what-all. It’s all in what you’re used to, I guess.
Unless Washington changed its law, this should be illegal there. I moved from that anti-gun state 9 years ago. I miss some people, but not the government.
Yeah, it’s cool . . . and expensive. And so many of these things are gimmicks. No argument from me that a short gun is more versatile in a CQB context, but not all that useful in the field. It just seems like so many of these companies create an admittedly cool gun that most people don’t really know what they would use it for, but want it because it’s cool.But for that much money, i can keep my Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip fed for a long time.
On the Black Aces shotgun jam problem, I had a similar problem with my Mossberg 500 . I used a Venim conversion on my pump, making it look similar to the Black Aces gun. Only problem was that it would occasionally jam on both the 5-rd. & 10-rd. mags. But once I began using strictly American made ammo, the problem was solved. [it jams on foreign ammo]! Hope this helps.
—- Semper Fi —-
ATF calls it a firearm, just like bombs, grenades, incendiary device, land mines, rockets, machine guns, short barreled rifles and shotguns. Ordinary guns are not what that term would lead you to believe. That car bomb put under your wife’s car or her boy friend is a firearm.
Explosive and incendiary devices beyond a certain weight of propellant/incendiary are “destructive devices,” as are modern rifles chambered in 20mm or larger (like old Lahti L-39 anti-tank rifle in 20mm). The Obama administaraion is trying to back-door .50BMG weapons into this same category, and some states reflexively outlaw them, Others permit civilian possession by those wealthy and patient enough to pony up the punishing fees for licenses, background investigation, and contribute to the re-election campaign of your friendly local sheriff so he’ll sign off on the paperwork.
Check state laws. This is illegal in some states. A $5 smooth-bore pistol registration isn’t too bad.
Cost way to much. You can get a DP12 for the cost of one of these… tell me which is worth it?
Yes you cant put a DP12 into a back pack… but it is way more gun.
Having just looked at the DP-12 on Standard Manufacturing’s website, my instinctive reaction is to say “natural for a ‘good’ character on ‘The Walking Dead’ to carry.”
My main response to new pump shotgun actions since Kel-Tec’s run of component failures is to say “I’ll wait a year,” but if Hillary Clinton’s elected and Congress fails to late-impeach her for her illegal activities as Secretary of State, we’ll have Bride of Frankenstein, an amalgam of a Clinton with all the disrespect for the rule of law that family has shown, plus a visceral disregard for the Constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear arms, and post-graduate instruction by the Professor of Constitutional Lawbreaking, Barack Obama himself. Buy ’em while you can and hope the manufacturers care about their customers.
I can’t afford $1400 for a single shotgun. If that amount of money dropped into my lap, then after the bills got paid, I’d be picking out nicely-used weapons at a hock shop I like down the road, a pistol, a nice Mini-14, and a shotgun.
Having a hard time cocking it. Plus he keeps forgetting to take the safety off. Not to mention trying to play a hard azz.
Anyone else notice what looked to me on the video that the author was changing clips “early” (before what looked like the mag capacity had been fired) and experiencing feed failures a few times? That would have been a nice detail to mention in the written article. As it is, all we know about this sort of thing is the comment by a disappointed Black Aces customer about failures to feed and related failures causing the weapon to be hung up during a firing sequence.
Very interesting. While we can argue all we want about “BATFE Opinion Letters” not being valid law. I think its fair to say that most of us – me for certain – do not want to test the validity of this. I suggest some of you who post your contempt for BATFE go out and use the arm brace as a shoulder stock in the presence of BATFE Field Agents and see what happens….. This is interesting on so many different levels. I wonder how local law enforcement will see these ?
Mr. Epstein might have provided “Exhibit A” in his Federal prosecution for “using a pistol arm brace to turn a ‘smooth bore pistor’ into a much more sinful weapon.”
Before the late lamented Justice Alito’s untimely death, this might have been a good chance to test the National Firearms Act and the maze of regulations spawned by the Gun Control Act of 1968 in the Federal courts, which – owing to SCOTUS’s leadership on this issue – have never been friendlier to the Second Amendment to the Constitution as originally construed.
Now, betting odds are, no matter who wins as President, we get another liberal as Justice Alito’s replacement – unless the Senate Republicans pick up a vote or two in November and can hold up nominations until an acceptable nominee is presented. Since they’re not even brave enough to impeach Barack Obama for violently raping Congress’ exclusive right to make law, that doesn’t seem too likely. NRA might to well to ask, out loud, every candidate for the House or Senate what their stance will be regarding ALL aspects of the right to keep and bear arms, including all of Barack Obama’s regulatory assaults on that right.
Everyone knows that, if the SHTF – then ATF letters are meaningless – we will ALL BE FELONS (or enemies of the state).
Much as I dislike BATFE and the arbitrary, ever-changing regs (they change their minds as quickly as a 16 yo changes with one more beer) – think I’ll stick with my KelTec KSG, for something short, maneuverable and legal – regardless of which way the wind blows (until everything becomes illegal).
Just don’t see the reason I should spend that kind of loot – for something I pretty much already have, that fulfills the same tactical requirements.
SHTF – the hacksaw comes out and many of the things in my rack get shortened. For now – I stay unquestionably legal and aboce the radar.
Rick
BATFE has, at least at ‘working guy level’ been pretty good about giving as much room as possible within the limits of law and the regulations drawn up by their political bosses (who probably screamed in horror at the original BATFE Opinion Letter on the SIG pistol arm brace’s “alternative use” and ordered a retraction. I’m not a big fan of any Federal agency whose mandate is basically to disarm me as thoroughly as Congress will allow, but the working guys at BATFE aren’t the same weasels who kicked off Waco, or shot Kenyon Ballew in the head during a raid over bullshit evidence provided by a burglar trying to snitch his way out of trouble and hearsay evidence by “confidential sources” whose reliability was no better..
I don’t see no mounting for optics as a problem. Really? Optics on something that you wouldn’t shoot over 25 yards with? It’s really not made for that range! For slugs a sight might help, maybe a reflex or other red dot sight. A laser sounds good, nice point and shoot “sight”.
An attempt at a niche for sure. Doing it in 20ga. “might” have made more sense, but then again what action would they use for that?
It should come as no surprise, the People’s Republic of California requires shotguns to have a minimum 16″ barrel. Interesting for those who live in a free state.
Let’s see. Not a a shotgun, not an AOW, not an SBS. What can it be? Maybe a destructive device?
“(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter (.50 inches or 12.7 mm), except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;”
I could be wrong but looks like he is using check weld not shoulder
Looks like an answer in search of a question. And just what an I going to want this for? Another cool looking tactical wantabe
This is really cool,I only wish it was made in a automatic,rather then a pump. Had you thought about that?
This is really cool,I only wish it was made in a automatic,rather then a pump. Had you thought about that?
All other crap aside…STOP SAYING “LESS THAN LETHAL” and “CLIPS” Dammit we are our worst own enemy sometimes. We want the libtards to leave our guns alone but we can’t even speak our own language.
Sorry brother, it wasn’t a short barreled rifle until the very moment you raised it up to your shoulder with the forearm support extended, and fired it as a rifle from a rifle position. At that moment you became a felon. Know the law before you break it. The ATF is well aware of the fine line with the short barreled pistols and the forearm brace. Intent is the game changer here. Don’t be shocked by the knock!
request my information previously submitted continue.
Kudos for the ingenuity and R&D work as the end-product is virtually without peer. But yeah, given the horrid economy the initial MSRP might need adjustment…The difference here is that they appear to have a niche in this particular category so I anticipate it will be quite well received both via the civilian and or LE market.
Looks like a good gun for gang bangers. Maybe they will be able to hit their targets better. I just don’t see any advantage over other self defense weapons. It look like he was having trouble cycling the rounds. Now if it were semi-auto that would be a different story.
There are too many other ways that this does indeed result in being an AOW… I think you need to re-read the long list of things that are called AOW. The ATF is pulling another Aikens; let them invest in production, then change their mind. This one is pretty easy to see coming…
Even if the rifled barrel and original receiver mean it’s not a shotgun, it IS still a handgun with a vertical foregrip.
It isn’t a handgun because it is over 26″ long when the stock is extended. If it was 0.50″ and therefore a Destructive Device subject to the NFA. That would open a huge can of worms, though, because every other pistol grip only shotgun could be viewed the same way.
The “sporting purposes” language in federal firearms law allows ATF to stretch the law far beyond what Congress intended. ATF has used their interpretation of “sporting purposes” to arbitrarily ban ammunition and restrict firearms many times in the past and that has to stop. Finally, a bill (H.R. 2710) has been introduced in Congress to do just that. It would do away with “sporting purposes” and replace it with “lawful purposes” language. Contact your Representatives in Congress and tell them to support H.R. 2710 to stop abuses by ATF!
Pistol grip, Sig Brace BEING SHOULDER FIRED, which the ATF now specifically says DOES make an firearm NFA…..if it wasn’t NFA officially, it will be soon, no thanks.
I wish these guys all the best in thier design. I however would never spend that kind of money for a pump shotgun, short barrel and or long barrel. There are too many kits on the market to convert shotguns into tactical, many shotguns in semi auto that are cheaper and reliable, at least for my hard earned dollars! As far as the ATF they are the one’s that are illegal and unconstitutional to begin with and should not exist under any name in the USA!
BTW it takes modified Saiga mags.
I’d want an ATF letter exempting it specifically. There’ a reason the .410 handguns have rifled barrels, not smooth bores. Plus a vertical fore grip on a hand gun is a no no. That is why handguns with a smooth bore have tax stamps. I’d rather pay $5 for a tax stamp ( factory made short bbl), or even $200 for a later altered one, just to be save. Good lawyers cost over $400 an hour…..
For $1200 I can get a Serbu with a stamp……
I don’t see the advantage over the Kel Tec shotty. Maybe a few ounces lighter and shorter when folded, but much more bulky and its made from an assortment of parts produced by various companies. As stated above, it is illegal to put a vertical grip on a pistol of any caliber. I think all of these BATFE regs are nonsensical dogshit, but that won’t keep a man put of the pokey if I don’t comply. As well, I think the Sig arm brace is going to be ruled out before too long. The BATFE has done this sort of thing before and it reeks of one of their traps. That is all.
Hmmm. i wonder how long it will take for someone to shoot their left hand off.
I would not be to fast to buy one of these as you could end up losing your gun or having to register it and pay the fee eventually. It will not take the BATF long to issue a new regulation to outlaw it.
I have a really nice Head Down AR-15 pistol with a Sig brace and it shoots much better at 15 yards then that shotgun. However I also have an original Mossberg Turkey gun I keep by the front door stuffed with 00 and slugs. Why pay that much money for the magazine fed gun when action at short range with a 12 gauge does not take long. It looks cool but I don’t buy cool I buy function.
ill make this short and sweet. IF YOU GOT A 5OO DOLLAR HEAD, BUY A 5OO DOLLAR GUN. IF YOU WANT TO LIVE BUY SOMETHING THAT WILL GIVE YOU A CHANCE
I would not want a pump that jams every other shot. Not very reliable for the cost. I would buy a Saiga 12 for that price which I know is a reliable firearm and is not questionable about whether it is a legal firearm or not. JMO.
I would not want a pump that jams every other shotNot very reliable for the cost. I would buy a Saiga 12 for that price which I know is a reliable firearm and is not questionable about whether it is a legal firearm or not. JMO.
Why do you keep looking around? I mean whats that about is that some tactical hoogimabob? I dont get it, your at a range dude you look like an idiot…………please stop…….its stupid
Legal or not is of no concern but “safety” is! Too short of a barrel brings a lot of concern as a slip off the charging handle will bring your hand to harms ways. 18″ barrel will be the perfect combat shotgun!
A handgun with a non-rifled smooth bore is regulated under the NFA as a AOW (smooth barrel pistol). If the barrel is rifled they could get around that part, it’s hard to tell but it appears to be a smooth bore. Unless something has changed adding a second pistol grip to a handgun is also subject to the NFA, again a AOW. Employing the brace as a butt stock is a definite no-no. Every now and then someone will find a chink in the ATF regulations’ armor….
A handgun with a non-rifled smooth bore is regulated under the NFA as a AOW (smooth barrel pistol). If the barrel is rifled they could get around that part, it’s hard to tell but it appears to be a smooth bore. Unless something has changed adding a second pistol grip to a handgun is also subject to the NFA, again a AOW. Employing the brace as a butt stock is a definite no-no. Every now and then someone will find a chink in the ATF regulations’ armor….
How does it get around the problem of the forward pistol grip, doesn’t that require the tax stamp?
How does it get around the problem of the forward pistol grip, doesn’t that require the tax stamp?
Another stupid poseur “gun.” Take that to a gunfight against a guy with a 24″ Mossberg 930 “shotgun” and see what happens. Heck, try taking it to a gunfight against a guy with a high-cap 9mm with a 5″ barrel, or somebody 25 yards away with a 10/22. LMAO!
Another stupid poseur “gun.” Take that to a gunfight against a guy with a 24″ Mossberg 930 “shotgun” and see what happens. Heck, try taking it to a gunfight against a guy with a high-cap 9mm with a 5″ barrel, or somebody 25 yards away with a 10/22. LMAO!
I wonder how much this item weighs? I am an avid bow hunter and have experience with being on the business end of a grizzly bear. Before this happened I used to feel that my .44 Magnum S&W Mountain revolver was adequate her medicine. After my experience I promised myself I would carry the extra weight of a shotgun rather than my revolver. Ounces count when you’re in the backcountry and perhaps this might be of use to people like me because I am only interested in the short range. For that kind of money I would prefer a reliable Semi auto platform however.
It’s PRICEY #%^^**!!!
I’ll stick with my 18 inch barrel 12 gauge Rem 870!
It’s PRICEY #%^^**!!!
I’ll stick with my 18 inch barrel 12 gauge Rem 870!
Having major trouble imagining a task or situation this device can handle as well as currently available traditional rifles, shotguns or handguns. This is truly the gimmickstirs gimmick. Good luck to the designers on making a living and tweaking the ATF’s nose in the process, but for me this is a useless device at best.
ATF has ruled on these before. It is an NFA firearm. It is a short barreled shotgun.
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should applies here. I realize what the letter of the law says. I just think that anytime the manufacture suggests you carry the ATF letter with the weapon, your on shaky ground. Imho this is a item with no need and the ATF or other alpha groups could change the defination at any time. That would make this a very expensive wall hanger, if not totally illegal .
Just my 2 cents worth.
How do you get around the .50 cal destructive device? Seems to me this would be labeled a destructive device by atf.
Did you try it using the SIG brace as it was designed?
*** The DT is built like a brick shit house, so you can expect this gun to function reliably for a lifetime. ***
a big giddy claim for a hybrid design with no track record just makes you look like a shill.
“Out of the hundreds of shells I fired (both brass and steel rimmed) I had no jams, no malfunctions, no problems what so ever.” This is how it should be. Unfortunately it’s refreshing here in reviews these days. This seems like it would make a nice addition to my safe. I can put it right next to my Romanian Mini Draco. They will look nice sitting there. Judging by the patterning evidenced here for the shot gun, they both have the same ability for putting rounds on target. That is, not much. But if I have a bunch of bad guys ambush me and I make my stand within arms length either might come in handy. But I’m a retired security guard so..,……
While watching the video, I couldn’t help but notice that in the first several firing sequences, in at least a couple cases, only a few rounds were fired from the rather large clips. Why was that, problems with jams? Made me wonder what got edited out.
I like how there is a prominent photo of the shooter shouldering the Sig Brace. A big no-no per the ATF. Say goodbye to the ATF exception and hello to AOW status.
I personally would stay far away from that monster.
NOT in Iowa friends all long guns have to have a 16″ barrel code 724… including AR’s.
Good thing it’s not a long arm, then. 😉
Good thing it’s not a long gun, then. 😉
Good thing it’s not a long gun, then. 😉
Good thing it’s not a long arm, then. 😉
This was covered in the article, which you overlooked. It’s NOT a shotgun, even though it shoots shotgun shells. Seriously, READ the article.
Good thing it’s not a long arm, then. 😉
This was covered in the article, which you overlooked. It’s NOT a shotgun, even though it shoots shotgun shells. Seriously, READ the article.
Good thing it’s not a long arm, then. 😉
This was covered in the article, which you overlooked. It’s NOT a shotgun, even though it shoots shotgun shells. Seriously, READ the article.
Good thing it’s not a long arm, then. 😉
This was covered in the article. It’s NOT a shotgun, even though it shoots shotgun shells. Seriously, READ the article.
Good thing you don’t live in Iowa…
Read the code 724, it’s NOT a handgun ? it’s a long gun. Tell it to the Sheriff !
While I love that definition-defying firearms like this exist, particularly ones that are arguably useful, reliable, and look cool, I’m super uncomfortable with how close the off-hand comes to the muzzle. In the video it looks like if Jacob had pointed his left index finger he could have easily blown it off. I’d like to see a fore grip that comes with an integrated shield, offset about 2-2.5″ to allow easy access for a large, gloved hand, but that prevents you from fully extending your fingers while holding the grip.
While I love that definition-defying firearms like this exist, particularly ones that are arguably useful, reliable, and look cool, I’m super uncomfortable with how close the off-hand comes to the muzzle. In the video it looks like if Jacob had pointed his left index finger he could have easily blown it off. I’d like to see a fore grip that comes with an integrated shield, offset about 2-2.5″ to allow easy access for a large, gloved hand, but that prevents you from fully extending your fingers while holding the grip.
While I love that definition-defying firearms like this exist, particularly ones that are arguably useful, reliable, and look cool, I’m super uncomfortable with how close the off-hand comes to the muzzle. In the video it looks like if Jacob had pointed his left index finger he could have easily blown it off. I’d like to see a fore grip that comes with an integrated shield, offset about 2-2.5″ to allow easy access for a large, gloved hand, but that prevents you from fully extending your fingers while holding the grip.
The left hand is awfully close to the muzzle…..wouldnt want to slip……..
Simply placing that arm brace on your shoulder and firing it reclassified it as an NFA weapon in the eyes of the ATF. Just because something is legal to purchase, doesn’t make it legal to use in any fashion you want. I have also heard that if you use a powder charge nailgun as a weapon (even in self defense) it has just become a destructive device or AOW and you could face federal weapons charges.
I’m not sure it will pass legal muster in Maryland due to the overall length and box magazine. As far as the safety, I have a Mossberg Spx 930 and replaced the standard safety with an oversized combat safety and it is easily reachable with a pistol grip.
These are legal in MD, yes. We’ve shipped the DT to MD in the recent weeks.
I’m from Arkansas, an we folk down here know the benefit of being able to stuff a gun under the seat of your Chevy when you want to. Shoot your fingers off! Seriously! As far as I’m concerned if I buy it from a dealer without them requiring me to register and pay stamps…then that burden is on them. What are you gonna do folks if next year the bag decides that all of your semi guns have to be registered? You guys at Black Aces need to keep on keeping on! And others need to follow suit. You naysayers need to man up a little bit!
“The DT is compact enough to be easily concealed.”
Exactly why is this an asset, for a weapon such as this? What problem is this “solution” solving?
Looks a little awkward while pumping, price would be a huge issue.
The hinge at the point where the stock/brace folds, looks like it would absolutely pound the crap out of your hand….does it?
I had a lengthy discussion with the local BATF agent in my area last year. He explained that just like the AR pistols variants with the “arm brace” stock, as soon as you should that stock and fire the weapon…..it just became an SBR. To each their own, but I’ll struggle with the 18″ barrel. You can buy on hell of a shotgun for $1200.
It looks like the hinge where the stock/brace folds, would pound the crap out of your hand…..does it?
It looks like the hinge where the stock/brace folds, would pound the crap out of your hand…..does it?
Nice gun. Wouldn’t mind putting some rounds through it. As for the shouldering issue, here’s where the ATF can suck it. I only see him resting the brace to his cheek. The recoil definitely sends the gun way further back than if it was shouldered. Kinda intimidating to hold a short “firearm” that close to one’s eye. I’m sure we’ve all seen those “gun fail” videos. I hope black aces makes a good go of it and I can score one of these a little further down the road maybe a little less than $1200!!! HOLD On and shoot from the cheek my friends!
Not a shotgun. Check.
Not a shotgun, so it can’t be a SBS. Check.
Not a pistol. Check.
Not a an AOW. Check.
Now, what exactly makes it NOT a Destructive Device? Other than ATF hasn’t gotten around to writing the “Oh, wait, we changed our mind” letter? Yet.
Exactly what I was thinking. 12 Gauge is 3/4″ (.75 Caliber) if I remember correctly and over 1/2″ (.50 Caliber) is a DD unless it is a shotgun and even then ATF can ban it at any time by simply declaring it “not sporting.”
No thanks – I will stick with my Mossberg and Rem. They don’t Jam! Not risking my life with a $1200 piece of junk!!!
I agree- 1200 is way too steep for an introductory firearm that hasn’t made a name for itself yet. Imagine the Mosberg you can get with $1200. It would certainly be semi automatic and not a pump action.
It is a cool firearm to be sure but $1200 is a bunch of money for anything.
Personally I also would never use a semi auto shotgun for personal defense work. If and when it jams you have to remove one of your hands from the firearm to clear it. With a pump you don’t. Much faster.
I’ve seen pumps jam..and when they do, you need BOTH hands, a screwdriver, and a minute or two to unjam it. Nothing is perfect.
I think the seeming “perpetual” argument against semi-auto shotguns has virtually (and finally) ended. I mean soeak with any Marine and they will tell you that the Benelli M4 will run all-day long dry absent any attention to maintenance…Look, there was a time long ago when semi-auto’s were picky about ammo, required astute attention given to the gas-system to ensure functionality etc…But honestly that boat sailed sometime ago and 21st Century semi’s are as common and dependable as pumps. Bottom line is I have and use both shotguns but my go-to SHTF gun is a Vepr-12 which replaced my equally reliable old 1187-P (countless rounds) which assumed that role for a few decades. Buy yeah, if your going to use a pump instead and know how to run it I would not try and dissuade as it will do the job absent any doubt.
I agree- 1200 is way too steep for an introductory firearm that hasn’t made a name for itself yet. Imagine the Mosberg you can get with $1200. It would certainly be semi automatic and not a pump action.
Why you can’t see it being sold for $1200, I can.
You and many others forgot to think dynamically.
1) They had to think of a way to get around the regulations a.k.a. illegal laws passed by the atf and that required lawyers to pay (Look in a dictionary and a thesaurus to see that the word “regulation” does mean “law” in this context. Only congress may pass laws)
2) The cost of research and development after figuring out all of the loopholes.
3) The making of the machinery and/or programs in order to keep this new not-a-shotgun from being made incorrectly and becoming unsafe for customer usage.
Forget mossburg. Think DP-12 for the same price or save some money and by a Ksg or UTG
I agree 1200 is way too steep for an introductory firearms that hasn’t made a name for itself yet
What makes this illegal in CA if it is only supplied with a 10 round magazine?
It is illegal in CA (commifornia) because they can choose which guns are illegal under pretty much any reason they choose. This started as a pistol style shotgun and any pistol grip shotgun in CA is illegal including a Taurus judge or s&w governor.
It’s commiefornia. Land of elitist hypocritical politicians and numerous idiots and invaders from other countries.
As for the evil empire state, let’s just say other commies run that area.
Not all pistol grip shotguns are illegal in California. Mossberg persuaders sell well here. Maybe it’s the length that makes it illegal here. CA law says minimum 18″ barrel, 26″ OAL length to stay legal, and you can put a pistol grip on it. This kind of FOD is why people think we can’t have AR’s or AK’s in CA, and we can and do…
Wow, I had to double-check the date on this article, thinking that it had to be before Nov. of 2014, because that’s when then the ATF letter to Black Aces re: using the Sig brace to fire their gun from the shoulder was issued. Nice felonious video, dude.
Anyway:
Why did they leave the original Mossberg top safety in place, as opposed to a Maverick/870 style one on the trigger guard? With a pistol grip, the top safety is basically unusable. I sense a future of KSGesque body part departures for this design. None of the VFGs that attach to a rail were designed to suffer any more stress than just sitting in place on a carbine or rifle rail. Using them to rack the action of a pump firearm will inevitably cause them to fail. Maybe shudda went with a Sidewinder style instead?
At letters are not law. According to the actual law, it is completely legal, the guy who wrote the letter just didn’t know what he was talking about. Not saying I’d do it on video, but it wouldn’t hold up with a good lawyer.
We need a volunteer to challenge the ridiculous ATF reinterpretation of what “re-designed” means. Not everything the ATF does is legal, but you still have to be willing to go to jail and hire a lawyer to get the issue before a judge.
Everything ATF does is ILLEGAL. It shouldn’t even exist. But since some people agreed to ”reasonable debate” in regards to the 2A we are where we are today!
The atf regulations are laws. Laws not passed by congress and definitely go 100% against the 2nd Amendment.
When looking in a dictionary and a thesaurus, one will note that the use of the word “regulation” falls under a definition of being a “law” in the case of the atf and many other alphabet soup agencies working under the executive branch.
Under the Constitution, congress cannot abdicate this duty without a Constitutional Amendment.
Any and all regulations passed by these alphabet soup agencies are 100% unConstitutional and every citizen should damn well be in an uproar over this. Let your representatives and senators know this by mailing, emailing, calling, and shouting out at them at public appearances about this damn problem.
No, my friends, What we REALLY NEED to do is completely REPEAL ALL Illegal Unconstitutional anti-2nd Amendment agenda based totalitarian laws like the 1934 NFA and especially the GCA of 1968, which, as prophets had predicted is now making Combat Vets with PTSD into criminals unable to have guns! And set to ‘expand’ by administrative mandate as soon as “H” gets the throne in 2016. Which will then be all you ‘one out of every three’ ‘mentally questionable’ gun owners who are then also ‘criminalized’ by the other currently ‘unenforced’ additions to the form 4473, like being ‘addicted’ to ‘ANY’ form of medication, Prescription or otherwise. (their definition of ‘addiction’ will be defined differently than yours)
Just because the leftist Fascist MSM doesn’t play the stories in the news doesn’t mean they don’t happen. Not too long ago when the ATF was pumping up a below radar agenda to ban ‘tactical shotguns…remember that? I was teaching a young patrol officer friend the finer art of CQC ‘shit-gun’ tactics with a Winchester Defender (also one of those early pistol grip only shotguns) that had a top folding stock on it. This was a rural outdoor tactical range open to anybody.
After a while an obvious stereotyped agent in civilian ‘redneck’ disguise sauntered over and asked if he could see the ‘Defender’. I said obviously your eyeballs are so good that you already saw it from way over there…so why do you need a ‘closer look’?
He started to reach for his badge wallet but i beat him to the ‘draw’ and whipped out my only little ‘G’-Badge and told him if he doesn’t quit interupting us in the exercise of our 2/A rights and get the fuck away from us right NOW, we will be convinced he was an Islamist terrorist trying steal our weapons and we will ‘Act Accordingly’! My cop student–who was big and strong enough to throw him down with one hand– picked up the cue… and closed in slowly on the flank holding the Winchester up on his shoulder in a ‘baseball’ bat type of grip…lol!
The agent didn’t know whether to shit or go blind but he was obviously not prepared to fuck with somebody that you can’t fuck with. He STFU, turned around and left. Later I asked some other people I knew what he was doing there and they said they were coming around regularly to check on ‘illegal weapons’. The range master chuckled and said we probably should have warned them but when we saw him heading for you guys we knew it was ‘tune-up’ time!
So as cool as this thing is, if you take it to a large public range to show it off and impress your bullet buds then also be prepared. If you don’t have a badge you better have the paperwork like the article here says.
Yea threatening a federal agent really smart.
Uhm, ok, I’ll bite… so what the heck is a “G-Badge”?
Yes, you and your buddy threatened an FBI agent. Sure.
Why so much obvious lying on this site?
I was thinking the same thing… is that supposed to be shouldered?
If you look closely he isn’t shouldering it. He is pressing his cheek into it and leaving a gap between the brace and his shoulder – a sort of CYA stance, if you will.
Look at the still image. Sure looks shouldered to me! – https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/black-aces-tactical-2473.jpg
The slug or shot in this picture was just fired. Normal recoil will push it back. Believe the rule, regulation, or what they believe is the law has to do with is when the trigger is pulled. You are not legally allowed to shoulder it to aim it. They won’t be legal long I suspect, so get a couple now for future use if you want. They will not likely be around long and will require “their” infamous registration to those that bought them when they could. Very good track record on making new regulations that that regulate things that were previously legal to own.
I was thinking the same thing… is that supposed to be shouldered?
The ATF letters are not law, simply agent opinion. The arm brace as a stock idea is a gray area, and it’s legality is subject to the desire of the ATF at any given moment to mess with people.
As for me, I’d rather go with the Sidewinder and a 14″ barrel
How about a Tactical Shotgun For Left Handed.?????
very cool, but 1200 bux? You know that if mossberg didnt pull their 14″ barrel parts kit off the civilian market, these guys would likely have a very niche customer base to appeal to.. Admittedly, kinda cool tho.. wish em best of luck.