With respect to this photo, don’t read too much into it. GunsAmerica is not anti-police or anti-law enforcement. (Photo: TheUSIndependent.com)
Many pro-gun control advocates argue that the Second Amendment is not only outdated but useless in this day and age because the United States military could easily crush a citizen’s rebellion.
Well, GunsAmerica reader “Finger” (his handle) begs to differ. In a related post on “Why We Need an AR-15 with a 30 Round Magazine,” Finger left this comment on the subject of the enduring relevancy and importance of the right of the people to keep and bear arms which I thought was so insightful that it deserved to be its own post:
I’ve heard, far too many times, the idea that a home-grown insurgency on U.S. soil could never stand up to the might of the Federal Government, and that our military could instantly crush any opposition. Like every facet of the gun debate, this one is quite complex, and before one jumps to any conclusions on the matter, it is important to first understand the nature of insurgency (not forgetting that this country was, in fact, founded by insurgents). There’s much more to war than simply who has the biggest guns or the thickest armor.
Shortly after the US-led invasion of Iraq and the subsequent destruction of its military and government, US military vehicles began receiving improvised explosive device (IED) attacks. In the years that followed, these attacks increased dramatically in frequency and lethality, as did US casualties. For a number of reasons, more and more people began to support the insurgency, and through trial, error, and careful observation, they were able to pinpoint not only the weaknesses of our tactics, but even those of our most sophisticated warfighting systems. Coalition forces had, at their disposal, M1 tanks, Apache helicopters, Predator UAV’s armed with guided missiles, HMMWV’s with frag-5 kits, Paladins, fighter jets from the Marines and Air Force, and a myriad of other very high-tech, very expensive and very deadly weaponry. Yet, the Iraqi insurgents, with little to no education, comparatively minuscule budget, crude weaponry, and very limited resources, managed to gain strength and momentum all the way up until the beginning of the awakening movement.
Every day that went by, our enemies became stronger and more skilled. So how was that possible? That fact defies everything we’ve come to believe about the omnipotence of the American military. Well, simply put, combat power isn’t measured in microchips. It doesn’t take billions upon billions of dollars in warfighting assets to recognize that a bomb carefully hidden on the side of the road can do a lot of damage to a passing HMMWV.
I came to be quite well-versed in the tactics and techniques of our enemies during my own service in Iraq. The greatest difficulty we faced was simply identifying our enemies. After all, they were dressed in plain clothes just like everyone else, and without the ability to readily identify targets, how could we eliminate them? Because of this, we relied heavily (almost entirely) on information gathered from locals to guide us toward the “bad guys.” But, even that process was greatly hindered by a wealth of misinformation provided by insurgents posing as well-intentioned civilians (and the kicker: we often paid them for that information).
So where does the gun fit into all of this? Well, a gun is nothing more than a tool, and every tactical situation is a little different. Thus, different situations will call for different tools. Gaining ground in any tactical situation will inevitably require one side or the other to maintain some sort of presence on the turf in question, and doing so will require one to come within close proximity of his enemy. No military force can accomplish this with helicopters, drones, and guided missiles alone; the potential for the deaths of innocent people and collateral damage is far too great. So, fancy precision-guided missiles, no matter how sophisticated, are only useful to a certain extent. In Iraq, if a certain individual was targeted for detainment, we didn’t hover over their suspected location in a helicopter and lob explosives at them, or pepper them with hellfire missiles until they finally zip-cuffed themselves and surrendered. Not only would this have caused the deaths of countless innocents, but it would have been almost impossible to determine if the intended target was even in the target location. It wasn’t until a squad of brave men – with rifles – stacked up, kicked down the door, and went in, that we could successfully pull off a targeting mission.
Now, it could be said that the war in Iraq was entirely different from any would-be conflict here on American soil. With that, I would agree- to an extent. There are, no doubt, major cultural, geographical, economic, and infrastructural differences between the US and Iraq that would be enormous factors in the outcome of any armed conflict held in either country. However, to make such a statement would be to miss the point that was made at the very beginning of this piece (without over-simplifying it): Victory doesn’t necessarily go to the side with the biggest guns. It’s the side that most effectively plays their strengths against the weaknesses of its opponent, that wins.
Thus, I illustrate the utility of the rifle, not for any particular group or organization, but in any tactical environment. It is a tool that provides its user with the means to cast a lethal projectile toward his enemy, and no one else; an ability that any warfighter, regardless of allegiance or alignment, will find themselves in need of.
Before I finish, I’d like to make a few things clear. This writing is not a call for revolution. If that has been your take-away, you’ve misunderstood me. I, and most everyone else in this country, have plans for the future which require stability and will never come to fruition in a war zone. I’m simply trying to inform the two people who will ever read this that, once again, the gun debate is not as “black and white” as some believe, and many of the arguments against guns are based entirely in ignorance and hearsay. My only goal is to provide a drop of truth in a sea of fallacy and misinformation. Rest assured, anybody who claims that guns should be further restricted or banned in this country because, “You can’t beat the government anyway,” has no real understanding of the issue.
Those who founded this country were able to do so only after waging war against their own government, which had become irreversibly oppressive and corrupt. Being well aware of the dangers of concentrated power and its detrimental effect on personal freedom, they wanted only to erect a system of government that could be kept in check by limiting its power, and its ability to acquire it. The rights outlined in the Bill of Rights were included because they are the rights that, among others, have the most profound impact on the peoples’ ability to remain free in mind and body. And, indeed, they are the same rights that must first be lost in order for those who seek power and true control to achieve that goal.
***
Big tip of the hat to Finger for allowing us to syndicate this rather cogent response to the question on whether an armed militia could contend with a corrupted and tyrannical U.S. government.
A man had a farm of 20 acres and grew wheat. He had a well dug 75 feet deep and pumped his own water. He lost 2 sons to the civil war. He refused to pay taxes, feeling he had already given enough and needed nor wanted nothing from society. The tax collector came with the sheriff and 6 deputies to remove him from his land. The problem is, that morning he set it on fire and dumped 20 lbs of powderized led into his well. It didn’t stop after 20 acres, it spread into the wilderness and burned nearly 115,000 acres. The led got into the ground water and made it toxic withing 1500 feet in all directions. Today’s patriots are not much different than yesterday’s patriots. You see… The United States is freedom, freedom is the constitution, and on top of all of it are the patriots that secured it. Therefore, you attack the patriots, you attack the constitution. You attack the constitution, you attack freedom. You attack freedom, you attack the United States. In the end, nobody wins.
What a joke!
You all talk a lot of smack! Our liberty is so far gone and not a shot really has been fired. Our elected representatives say whatever lies they want and no one does anything. At this point what difference does it make if the government allows us to keep our guns or not? Every single other right has been taken away or severely damaged , yet here we sit with our guns.
So I am going to have to agree despite the fact that we have the #s to completely destroy the Federal government forces sadly none of you have the courage. If the courage existed to defeat the tyrants we would already be overthrowing them.
So I am going to say that ‘Slim’ is at least honest about the fact that he is too cowardly to fight.
Besides the only smart revolution who be silent corresponded simultaneously political assassinations which would not take 90 million people to do, more like a 2-3 for every congressman and maybe a dozen for the Emperor.
1) Sounds like projection to me. Speak for yourself, you chicken shit.
2) You’ve basically said that because something hasn’t happened yet, that it never will. I don’t think I need to elaborate on why that’s a truly silly thing to say. Any number of future events could set an armed rebellion in motion, and what those circumstances might look like are anybody’s guess.
3) The person who wrote this article clearly stated it wasn’t a call for revolution. They were just making the point that — IF — again, — IF — an armed conflict were to occur here, rifles would be useful for both sides, but thanks for playing.
I believe a lot of us who own firearms have the courage to use them against all odds. Walk on the fighting side of me and I’ll do my best to insure that you die, regardless of who you are or what agency you represent. I’ll keep squeezing off rounds until my old heart stops beating and I draw my last breath. Bring it on you scumbag Trumpies. See what happens.
Count me in I am 68 and still shoot well ….Vietnam Vet …. I believe we will outnumber the military, I also believe some military would not fire on US citizens.
I don’t believe American troops will kill fellow Americans. Maybe a few, but not the majority.
Amen… I was & will always be… U S ARMY … look, listen, learn, educate, train, plan & prepare, for Freedom isn’t Free…you must stand ready to enjoy and enforce your Freedom…lest someone steal your Freedom…a little bit at a time. Thanks for your article and your wisdom to see and say…it really is a personal decision. Live Free or follow others with Control issues.
I don’t get it. You use Iraq as an example of counter insurgency. Nobody won. Hundreds of thousands dead. So tell me again how violence with weapons saves you from a govt? Didn’t help Iraqi’s!!! And tell me again how it will save you from a govt with an incredible database of information on all of you, drone pilots, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons… everything. They know every relative you have. Everyone you talk to on the phone.
Good luck with your rifle and i’ll ask again, how will violence with weaponry ever solve any of your problems with govt? Have you considered actually trying to fix something rather than getting all scared and hiding behind your gun?
There’s a lot of strong talk here, but the reality is that it’s just talk. Most of the talk is based on some sort of apocalyptic scenario where the US military is attacking the people. As others here have said, most military would refuse to participate in something like that.
But that is not how it will happen. We’re not going to have the 1st Marine Division sent to New York City to take it over. It will be a much more creeping and insidious process. The key is that it will all be done “legally”, through law enforcement agencies and the “justice” system. In any such scenario, the people won’t be fighting the military, they will be fighting the (heavily militarized) police. The police will be obligated to fight us because the government will first pass laws making “criminals’ of those they want to target. The military would only be involved if the police are losing the battle. And very few will shoot back against the police in the first place.
As proof that almost no one is going to stand up militarily against the government’s abuses, we don’t need to speculate – we need only look at things that have already occurred.
The first and foremost example is the federal government’s attack on Randy Weaver and his family. Who was lining the roads in and out of Randy’s place in Idaho, shooting at the murdering federal thugs? No one.
At Ed Brown’s standoff in NH, a few brave, and perhaps naive, souls came to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Ed and his wife. In the end, the feds picked off Ed and Elaine, then they sniped, via the “justice” system, all of the few who came to support him. All are serving lengthy prison sentences now, without a shot being fired.
During Katrina, police were going around confiscating people’s guns, instead of helping them. Did people from all over the US go to New Orleans to make a stand for the people against the law-abusing police? Hell no.
Some people did go to Nevada to stand with Clive Bundy. And the feds backed down. But you can be sure that all who went there have been carefully photographed and identified by the feds, and probably all will eventually be sniped off by the legal system for standing up against government abuse.
BATF is notorious for abusing gun owners. When they come to arrest a law-abiding citizen for some inadvertent technicality, does everyone else get on line with their rifle and stand against the BATF? No, they don’t.
So, the way this “war” with the government will happen is that they will pass ever-more-stringent laws against us and our ability to defend ourselves. Those who resist will be branded “felons”, and the police will arrest them, j juries will convict them, and they will be given draconian prison sentences.
If the police come in the night to arrest your neighbor for felony AR rifle possession, are you going to start shooting at the police when they arrive? Very unlikely. If you do, you might get a few of them, but in the end you will simply be militarily overwhelmed and branded as another “criminal”. So you do nothing, except perhaps some protests, your neighbor will be taken away and jailed by a “justice” system that is slanted toward the government’s point of view. Then next month, when the police come to your house to arrest you for felony M855 ammo possession, for example, is your other neighbor going to start shooting at them for you? No, he isn’t.
No one is more of a Second Amendment supporter than me, but this is reality as I see it. Our guns are a good thing to have, but we’re not going to be using them against the government, despite all the rhetoric. “Live Free Or Die” sounds good, but almost no one is willing to actually die for it. And of course “live free” is a very hard thing to define. Are we completely “free” now? Are you kidding? We are FAR from completely free, and most people wouldn’t want all to have complete freedom to do anything. So “free” is a very large continuum, with “completely free” (anarchy) at one end and jailed indefinitely in solitary darkness, wrapped in chains at the other end. We are somewhere in the middle, and we regularly creep more and more toward the “not free” end. But there is no cutoff point where we say “if I am just one small increment less free, I am going to start shooting back.” So we just keep creeping toward less freedom and more government control. Government control? Hell, we can’t even buy a gas can that works and there was a period we couldn’t even buy a toilet that flushed because of government control.
The situation is much like that expressed in Pastor Martin Niemoller’s poem:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Replace “speak out” with “fight back”, and you have the situation as I have described it.
something to think about……………….
Resistance is never futile. If it comes to shooting at people with tanks and helicopters and they don’t immediately mutiny to side with the people (pretty likely IMHO) then there ain’t no way in hell I’m fighting fair in the first place. According to ARMY field manuals it only takes the support and sympathy of 3% of the populace to sustain an insurgency. That number would grow every day under a military occupation of this nation.
Yay!
Back to the original premise of the article, I think almost all would agree that a semi-auto rifle with 30 round magazine would be a useful tool in protecting our freedom from anyone who would try to take it from the American people.
Whether the armed citizens of the U.S.A. could take on the current military is debatable. But I do see a disturbing trend of polarization between those in favor of the 2nd amendment and other Constitutional Rights, and the ignorant, brain-washed, anti-firearms masses. I could see, instead of a revolution, a civil war brewing. It would be Constitution supporters, versus the Bloomberg ignorant. This would perhaps divide the military, as it did in our previous civil war, evening the playing field a bit.
Obama is what divides the Military Tom.
Please watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1DS2wXSKF5k
Spread the word around about this guys channel.
He has many well articulated videos on current issues.
Make love not war my brothers. If people have more love in their hearts we wouldn’t even have this conversation.
There will always be good and evil.
You pass out all the love you can.
But stand behind the ones willing to defend your life.
And don’t get in the way.
I don’t agree with the folks who believe that if TSHTF that we would be facing a large military force including law enforcement because as some have pointed out, the majority of local police, Guard and military would be at home preparing to defend their families from whatever is “coming down the pike”. As both retired military and a former police officer, I took an Oath to defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL Enemies, Foreign and Domestic. That Oath never expires until I leave this Earth one way or the other. Although I hope that we never have to find out about today’s military firing upon today’s citizens, I will stand and defend my family and friends to the end.
Your a good guy Martin, and there are many like you.
I don’t know how big the military force will be, but you will recognize them by their blue hats.
It’s not really a matter of believing, because some pretty unbelievable shit is already flying.
It’s more about being vigilant and then diligent in your actions.
I posted this a few times above, but just in case you skipped over it, here it is again.
Just be aware of this summers event from 7/14 to 9/11. here’s 3 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mxb9Kk1KK8&feature=player_detailpage
Here’s a guy down playing it; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36gR9a-Db90&feature=player_detailpage
Here’s a guy calling out the previous guys bullshit; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2NauQzirzE&feature=player_detailpage
Very well written and well said. I feel the same way.
A few questions;
What is your exit strategy for terminating aggression?
What alliances will be made with other countries? (foreign invaders taking advantage of battle weary combatants)
What form of GOVERNMENT will be established? ( GOD help us on that one, you don’t respect the current try forming another and see what happens)
What currencies will be adopted and what happens to the current monies? ( tell a rich person his/her money is no good and see the reaction)
Who will rebuild the infrastructure and all other things lost?
I could go on and on. Lets get big business, the billionaires club and some incompetent law makers out of office. Vote in government officials and pay the the average mean salary of the working class plus one (1) dollar more. Set term limits for all congressional members. A revolution will not change what we already have, just the characters in power. Lets take a slow step forward while reflecting of the old and what changes to are needed to go forward as a UNITED STATES of AMERICAN PEOPLE. Yes, my guns are locked and loaded, thats for my personal protection.
They will never be able to take our guns… no matter what! Many of us would die rather than allow ourselves to be disarmed. Our society has become very safe as a result of so many people being armed. I carry every day everywhere I go. And I encourage all law-abiding US citizens to do the same. That is what will preserve our republic from tyranny.
Good job James.
I already commented on Fingers writing last week when it was posted.
I also chimed in on many comments here today on varied subjects.
But since S. H. BLANNELLBERRY Titled Fingers writing as;
IS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SO POWERFUL THAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS POINTLESS?
I’m just going to have to say this; We the People are far bigger than our Government.
Plenty of us are smarter and even better at operating firearms than the military.
Certainly we would all not deem our 2nd amendment right as to be “pointless”
And make no mistake, the good people in the government combined with the brave citizens are far and beyond, More Powerful.
That’s the long version, here’s the shorter version; NO!
Our military won the first part of their war with Iraq, but their occupation was a far different story. As far as our military (infantry all the way up to fighter jets)…they wouldn’t have any qualms about shooting us down or blowing us up. Remember Kent State? You really think the Guard would jump ship? I hear that Marines are being asked if they would follow orders and fire upon citizens in the USA. It is a known fact that most would. It was also noted that if they answered that they wouldn’t, then any hope of advancement or attaining upper rank was out of the question. But do remember this…Vietnam was won by little guys with AK-47s. Our Voodoos, mini gunships, helicopter gunships, and advanced weapons did little good. Bloomberg, Fienstein, Liberman, and the rest of those zionists spear-heading the destruction of the 2nd amendment will be defeated. Gee, didn’t I read that something like this happened in Russia when “Joe” came into power along with his zionist pals…at least 20,000,000 died after they confiscated all the guns. Don’t give up them guns!
U.S. soldiers most definitely will shoot civilians without blinking an eye. I been in for over 7 years now these dudes are f*****g retards. I hear mock scenarios all the time amongst the Joe’s.. “What if we were order to do this or that?” They reply with the upmost enthusiasm that they would raid your house shoot your family they laugh about it think it’s funny. Trust me there would be about 90% compliance amongst U.S. troops to roll down your street and rape your daughters. No hesitation. Just following orders.
The answer to whether the U.S. military will fire on Americans is as plain as the hand writing on the wall. Look at what oammie has done to the military? He has fired numerous people and replaced them with new world order puppets. He has gayer up dumbed down the majority of the soldiers. Allowed foreign no citizens to join the military. You think these people would hesitate to fire,on an armed insurgency? I hope you know how to duck quick. Besides again look at the worlds situation and how a lot of the worlds economies are tied into the fiat dollar. You think all these countries that have been bailing us out all these years is going to stand by and watch this country implode? I doubt it. They will call their debt due and when it can’t be paid they will collect the collateral that has been used. Your income, retirement accounts and everything else the likes of harry Reid and his chronies has promised to them. Besides I want everyone who reads these types of posts to understand one thing. America is not mentioned in the end times. That means we are either destroyed or swallowed up. If you believe in scripture which I do one can see in the book of Daniel about the king of the north using a weapon of indignation against the king of the south. One need only look to the eastern half of this country to figure out who thinks of himself as king. This weapon of indignation? EMP. The king of the north? Vladamir Putin. The king of the south? Obama. Use of an EMP over the Midwest would render the entire grid useless and would make all our modern weapons systems useless. Mass looting rioting murder and rape would ensue. Martial law would ensue and people would be and will be shot on site. The outlook is bleak for this country folks and I am afraid it’s too late to stop it. So if this be the case then talking about it is moot. One can only prepare for the inevitable.
First let me state I am pro-second amendment but I am not a fool either. The anti-gunners are 100 per cent correct. In order for a revolution to be successful the insurgents would have to receive money and weapons and ammo from an outside source. The ammo supply, weapons and spare parts would be cut off in short order during an uprising. Under the current illegal Government surveillance nothing could move in daylight or darkness without the government seeing it and any electronic communication would be instantly picked up by Government eaves dropping. Anyone who ever even bought a gun magazine on a credit card or wrote a check would be instantly known as a potential gun owner and given a short time to turn in all weapons or else and we all know what the Germans in WWII meant when they told someone “or else”. Like the Germans of WWII the government would use terror. A civilian caught with a weapon would be marched out into the town square and executed and the rest of the population told that by next morning all weapons would have to be piled up in the street and then they would be scooped up by front end loaders and hauled away. This method of course is almost foolproof.
Quote: not forgetting that this country was, in fact, founded by insurgents). Quote:
I think the author should go back and take another course in history. This country was founded by greedy American Merchants who were so stupid they ended up biting off the hand that was feeding them i.e the Empire of Britain. The greedy businessmen were too cheap to pay a few dollars in taxes to support the British world wide trade system that gave them access to overseas markets and was making them very wealthy. The U.S. was set back economically by decades and the soon to follow war of 1812 further devastated the growth of the U.S. economy by decades.
The Merchants who also controlled the new revolutionary government even screwed the best general they had and that was Benedict Arnold (who was winning battles and was feared even by the professional British Army) by stabbing him in the financial back and refusing to compensate him for the personal money he spent on the war which in todays money would be well over a million dollars. Washington (who actually wanted to be a British Officer originally and was told by the British that they did not hire “colonials” (old term for hillbilly) on the other hand lost more battles than he won and he was almost captured twice and he never even showed up for the decisive battle of the war at Yorktown which by the way was won by the French storm troopers while the American colonials simply looked on in wonderment and took no part in the battle. It was the French fleet that drove off the British Navy so that the French could starve the fort into surrender.
The American Revolution was actually the most divisive war ever fought by American as thousands of Americans then left America for Canada never to return and many were professional people that American could ill afford to lose at the time.
The amount of money spent on both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 slowed down the building of new factories because of lack financial capital, and of access to world markets. New educational institutions were not built because of lack of money as well as the construction of new roads and bridges as well. There was even lack of money and manpower to annihilate the American Indian and wipe him off the face of the earth as his land was needed by American farmers many who were recently arrived German Mercenary’s who were not to be trusted foreigners who Benjamin Franklin said would soon outnumber the “original English Americans” and cause the total destruction of the American way of life. Sound ludicrous today but “fear of foreigners” is as alive today as it was back then even though it has been proven that one of the major causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was banning immigration of foreigners during an economic downturn which caused unreasonable panic and scapegoating. It was later learned that far from taking jobs from indigenous people immigration actually created new jobs and new businesses. It was true during Roman times and still true today as economic studies have proven many times over again and again.
Canada today points with pride to the fact that they were smart enough to talk Britain into giving them independence and did not get thousands of people killed or devastate their economy through war.
The idea today that things have not changed since the days of the minute men is pure Right Wing fantasy. The only thing that is still true is that when weapons are banned by the government total loss of freedom will result but the ownership of such weapons will not in the end prevent the Government from doing such a thing if and when they decide the time has come to do so. No foreign nation that I know of has the will or capability of feeding weapons and ammo into a war between the American people and their potential enslavers which is their own government. A grim truth but the truth all the same.
With the war won by America its economy was in shambles
ummmm….Petru, your Leftist professors really did a job on you. Talk about revisionist history.
Amazing, isn’t it.
I don’t think the author needs to “go back and take another course in history” so much as you need to go back and look up the definition of the word “insurgent.” It’s a shame that you spent so much time writing such a poorly worded rant that, in the end, didn’t even prove your point. Any group that attempts to overthrow a government is an insurgent group (regardless of whether you think their goals were just or wise).
The British thought they were too powerful to!!!!
The history of hundreds of revolutions, insurgencies and protests has demonstrated time and time again that no government can stand up to a determined and well armed militia, of which the US has, in spades.
With the military training, experience and weaponry available to our militia, I have no doubt that a new revolution would be terrible, last resort and gut wrenching war for all but ultimately would be won by the people, which is the militia. Our American populace today is the very definition of a well regulated militia. Many don’t understand the real meaning of the word militia and haven’t read enough to understand the real story of the first American Revolution.
I never want to see it in my life time and hope it’s never necessary, but anyone who doubts the possibility and eventual outcome if things deteriorated badly enough, long enough to force men and women to risk their lives and fortunes as well as those of their families, is not seeing clearly.
One has only to look around the world today in numerous countries to see what can happen with a determined populace, even when poorly equipped, against a supposedly superior national force.
Now that’s a wise comment, thanks BRASS.
People, Google your State’s Militia to get information on what you can do to prep/help/join.
Most gun owners think that government agents are going to knock on their door and announce that they are here to inspect and/or confiscate your firearms. This is how it is really going to happen because it has already happened to Albquerque gun collector/dealer/importer Robert E. Adams (AdamsGuns.com). I have personally known him for over 50 years. . .he is an honest person and dealer, but he pissed off an ATF agent who was harassing him about some import paperwork he filed and this agent brought the ATF down on Bob with fictitious and outrageous allegations.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/robert-farago/this-is-how-the-dhs-seizes-your-guns/
Sorry, but those are small potatoes, Ronhart
This summer might get interesting for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6Mxb9Kk1KK8
in the next 10 to twenty years, there wont be enough people in this country to even care about the 2nd amendment. the young of today will be the adult of tomorrow, they are only interested in one thing…that is hey, whats coming down that electronic game trail, or whats the next hot phone that will be able to make it easier for them to sit on their fat rear ends so they can play those games! when i was 35 years old, i would either get to my fishing spot on the creek 2 hours early or have to fight my way into it. there used to be thousands of fishermen and/or hunters out on opening day. 2 years ago. three hunters out on the green mountain road. well, used to be that you couldnt find a parking spot. there is an ever widening between us guys and the young. they simply dont care for the most part. us guys will all be dead of old age!!this is what happens to all ruling countries that go soft from easy living. it is a sad thing to watch. i mean, out of all the people that really are us citizens, we as a nation cannot find someone better than obamma???? that one statement ought to tell you what is going to happen. better start prepping my friends. its too late for me.
I would like to point out that most people don’t have the slightest clue of how an Army really works. Meeting the U.S. Army face to face, even with sympathetic National Guard troops on our side is a recipe for losing. People see “revolutionaries” using the same tactics that the Founders used against the British, lines of soldiers shooting at each other.
The line abreast tactic was dictated by the firearm of the day: a smoothbore flint-lock musket launching a 3/4 inch ball at pistol velocities. The minute rifled muskets came on the battlefield, the line abreast became not only obsolete but idiotic. That was proven in the opening days of the Civil war,and it took almost three years for Generals on both sides to realize the fact. When battle lines became more fluid, battles were decided more effectively and with fewer casualties.
Like animals and plants, battles and their attendant weapons systems evolve. Imagine what a Revolutionary soldier would have thought of a breech loading cartridge fed rifled semi-automatic rifle. He’d either think it was the Devil’s work or that God had wrought a miracle.
And he still wouldn’t know how to employ it properly.
Today, the best method for revolutionary change is to get people off their posteriors and into the polls. If things have degenerated to the point where people start shooting, the voters bear the blame. In this country we get the Government we deserve, not what we want.
Ballots are far more effective than bullets when it comes to making change happen.
Okay, let’s play the game. The Fed decides to go Imperial, just like Rome did. How do we deal with it?
First, try to disaffect as much of the Military as possible. There are still a lot of idealists in uniform.
Second, stop paying taxes. If necessary, create a black market where the price is the same but the vendor keeps all of it, not his profit minus the Gov’t’s taxes. More money for the same thing? Most merchants will go for it.
Third, deny the agencies of the Government the respect they need to operate. Question them unmercifully, challenge their actions in every situation. Force them to either become Enemies or to quit the whole thing.
Fourth, Question the Government. Crash their websites with questions and challenges.
Fifth, make your Representative and Senator know that you will support them if they support the Constitution. Otherwise, they face Recall or Defeat at the polls.
Now, where did I say shoot anyone or make bombs? If the Government goes rogue, work the existing system to rein them in.
You don’t need guns to topple the Government. You just need to decide not to support it. If it resorts to violence, there are more of us than there are of them.
Bottom line: If the government goes rogue, it will be because we let it. If it does, we can fix it. All we have to do is involve ourselves…that is one thing the antigunners fear: they can work the mob but there are more of us than there are in the mobs. They can try to appeal to emotion. We can respond with law and precedent. They can claim the Constitution is a living and therefore changing document. We can reply with the truth: it is a Contract that we, the People, gave to a chosen group of professionals for our governance and nothing more.
We don’t need guns. All we need is the truth. And the Anti’s know this.
KMack, great post.
>>>In this country we get the Government we deserve, not what we want.<<<
The most poignant observation I've seen in this thread.
Dangerously naive, narrow minded and living in Fairyland.
Matrix quote, “Ignorance is bliss.”
Good Luck!…. I mean it seriously.
KMacK….I agree with you completely up to the point of the Gov’t attempting to disarm the population…at that point they will not care if we support them or not. You also did not address the fact that there is at least 50% of the population that will ALWAYS vote for the Gov’t to take care of them….maybe more now that the Administration is importing more of those same voters…I would like to hear you view on how we handle those situations…and I mean that sincerely not in a confrontational tone.
On opening day of deer season, the number of licensed hunters heading out to the field, say, in Wisconsin, outnumbers the Armies of most modern nations. Just imagine if we were to include ALL of those armed individuals going hunting on opening day, in all 50 States. In the South, it’s a bigger holiday than most, with many taking off work, to take part.
Our military is only comprised of less than 1% of our population, (approximately 315 million+- total) for an armed force of about; 1,361,755 Active personnel & 850,880 Reserve personnel for a grand total of 2212635+-. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces)
Regardless of the sophistication of our current military technology and intelligence infrastructures, there is simply no way that conventional forces could ever subdue a guerilla force, of the size that could be mounted, right here in the USA. Approximately 60-80 Million Americans own firearms.
In 1776, Great Briton was considered the most powerful nation on the planet, yet a mere 15%+- of the Continental population, was sufficient to overcome them, in many cases fighting ‘Indian style’ aka Guerilla warfare.
Think about it. The only reason that Obama/Soetoro/Soebarkah/Bounel (or Whatever his Real Name is) hasn’t been Impeached, is because our ‘fearless leaders’ in Congress and the Courts are afraid of offending the Black population in this country, who could be expected to riot and raise hell. They only comprise about 13% of our population with combat aged persons being less that 1/4 of that amount…
Of Course a decent sized guerilla force could over come our professional military, especially when they have little knowledge of just who the enemy is. I once knew a man who immigrated from Yugoslavia, following WW2. He told of how he and his young teenaged friends would kill individual Nazi soldiers and take their weapons with which to kill even more of them. A Brick could get you a rifle, which could get you even more weapons.
Nobody in their right mind wants to die in a hale of bullets in the front yard at the hands of domestic enemies of our freedom and The Constitution. But freedom truly is not and has never been “free.” Many have died to secure our freedom, and I do not see that I have much of a choice should it come to that. Our government needs to be really careful. Not everyone who thinks this way is some ignorant smack-talking nut. I am a highly educated professional who happens to have strong convictions and can shoot straight. And there are millions just like me.
If you want to gauge which military members would follow immoral orders, just ask them if they would shoot Edward Snowden if ordered. Snowden exposed only the tip of the iceberg of criminal activities our government is committing against the citizens of the United States. He is standing alone against the federal government’s raging machine of oppression. He is exposing the ongoing destruction of our Constitutional rights. Any time the government tells you a person is a threat to “national security,” ask yourself if what they are really saying is that the person is a threat to the power of the government or to the elite interests who control the government and media. Somehow everyone has forgotten that “the nation” is the people, not the government. The government works for the nation. Snowden is serving the people, not the government. That’s why the government wants him silenced. He is a patriot by the same definition that the participants in the Boston Tea Party were patriots. They put their own lives at risk by acting in the interests of the people against a tyrannical government.
National security is supposed to be the security of the citizens, not the security of the government. When a person poses no threat to the citizens of the United States, and is in fact trying to educate the citizens about the evil being done by agents of the government, they are not a threat to national security. They are only a threat to the criminally oppressive regime.
Unfortunately, our puppet government, through the puppet media, has created a rubber stamp label they can attach to anyone who opposes them. This label convinces all sheeple that the labeled person is a horrible threat and should be eliminated. The label tells military personnel that they might even get a medal just for killing this person. That magic label is “terrorist.” It is assigned to any individual who takes action against our government. Soon, it will start being applied to people who speak out against the government or those who decide they want to keep their guns to protect themselves from the government. Even now, if people were to simply discuss how to overthrow our government, they would be labeled terrorists and placed on the numerous “terrorist watch lists.” According to the government, anyone who thinks they need a gun must be considered a threat. Just ask the puppet media how much of a threat 3D printing guns is to “national security.” They run stories about this new “threat” constantly, these days. They ignore the fact that gun smiths have been able to craft significantly better guns from chunks of metal for hundreds of years. It’s all about scaring the public into giving up freedoms for the illusion of safety. Frightened children are easily manipulated by carefully crafted scary stories.
Y’all should read “Finger’s” follow up comment to the one that led to this article: in a word – brilliant!
it’s quite a long way down the coments :-
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/why-you-need-an-ar-15-with-a-30-round-mag-part-ii/#comment-59887
Assuming that it’s true, and the American military is too powerful for the people with their private arms (almost exclusively handguns, rifles, and shotguns) to mount a successful revolt against the government, this is not an argument for giving up our arms. Rather, it is an argument for the people to be armed with better, more powerful weapons. Even if these weapons had to be held is special facilities, at least when the government made attempts to seize them (such as the act in Massachusetts that precipitated the Revolution), they would act as tripwires that would let us know when it’s “on.”
Give up my firearms? “Hell, no!” But that having been said, I really don’t believe that it will come down to a test of arms…. at least not in the way most here envision it. I am frankly more disgusted by, more horrified at the actions of, more flabbergasted at the rank stupidity of, and more alarmed by the attitudes of: our federal and state level government politicians. And just FYI, I am NOT taking sides here in the Dem vs Rep fight being waged by the nutjob extremists in both parties. Fact is, if it ever came to a point of losing our rights and freedoms, it would start with the passage of LAWS. They would be ill thought-out, but passed by taking advantage of emotion (e.g. the complete Patriot Act); and/or they would be passed by the majority who vote the power and influence, e.g. Koch bros/Tea Party (used only because they are the loudest, most visual example; the complexity of Washington money-power brokerage is rivaled only by the amount of self-interest involved).
Once the laws/acts/amendments are passed, enforcing them becomes a largely “regulatory” issue. A previous poster was also correct (imho) that such things would be incremental, not enacted all at once. The politicians who wield the most power did not get there by being stupid, but rather by being clever and manipulative…of the system, of each other, of We The People. So they’re not about to do something that in one fell swoop brings the wrath of the population down upon their heads. Any made toward a totalitarian regime would be made in small, “right-seeming” votes. Most of us will not see the end result of many of these votes until it is too late. And to a large extent, we are already living in a totalitarian state, but it isn’t one that uses the dictatorial powers of political power….not yet. It uses the dictatorial power of MONEY. Money and self-interest are the strongest political parties in existence. THAT is what we need to watch ~ where is the money being spent? We already have a huge divide between the 1% vs the 99%, and it will not in the future be sustainable without buying the government as a whole. And it has already begun…..
Now, I absolutely HATE a lie. I don’t care who tells it. Some are direct. Some are lies by manipulation: facts, numbers, you name it. But a lie is a lie. Even the ones we tell ourselves to justify our actions. Ask why GW has never been charged with war crimes along with his buddy Dick? Never even a condemnation by the UN? Since retiring, he has admitted he only looked at facts that supported what he wanted to do, yet never even so much as a lawsuit for wrongful death? THREE WORDS, my friends: money, power, influence. Those who SHUT DOWN our government just a couple years ago: their actions resulted in a down-grading of our credit rating around the world, other countries lost faith in us, and still others began to see where our weaknesses were that can capitalized upon. They did us real harm; in many ways it was measurable, quantifiable harm. They did it knowing beforehand that their actions would cause harm to the United States. They did it with the stated GOAL of causing harm, to force the issue and apply pressure to the other side. That’s treason, my friends…look up the definition if you have to. And I would argue that it is terrorism as well; it doesn’t matter that the tools used to commit this act of terrorism were political and economic. When you deliberately act in a way that you know will result in harm to the United States, and with the purpose of CAUSING harm as a means of achieving a goal…. what would you call it? Did you ever see any criminal charges result?
The government calls it being a traitor. That’s what they are calling Snowden, right? But the same rules don’t apply to those sitting in a political office, do they? You might ask “WHY?” The “why” is money and influence. Just a couple of examples of how we need to watch the money, where it comes from, where it goes, what is the result. When that money is used to enact laws that serve as the basis for removing our freedoms, or giving to others in our place, that’s when we should be alarmed. Not the little stupid things that happen simply because some poor idiot forgot how to think. I use the aborted attempt to restrict M855 LAP 5.56 ammunition recently. It was poorly thought out; it relied on having only limited information; and there was NO big money behind this attempt. It was never a real threat to you or me. If I could have made and illustrated this point in a less verbose way, I would have; sorry. And apologies to the Tea Party for any perceived slight; maybe you should admit there’s more in your cups than just tea.
Well you almost did a good job of deflecting away your political leanings….but every negative example you posted was of conservative/conservatives. You should have commented on our current administrations blatant abuse of power, the skirting of our constitution, the willful importing of immigrant voters and the pandering to the middle east just to name a few….then I/we might have almost believed you….almost. Sad.
Holy shit your a twisted misinformed Democrat, right?
Do you go to NPR, or John Stewart for your brain washing information?
Why are you here? Nevermind, I know why. But hey, you say you hate liars?
Here’s the biggest political liar in the history of the world.
Enjoy the truth, it may hurt a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hjoXux-vKLc
John,
You’re spot on. The money is the largest corrupting influence in our political system. It erodes the right of the individual citizen by distracting and directing the elected representatives, of all political parties and belief systems. Failure to recognize this truth (such as the Citizens United SCOTUS decision) is actually the mark of the money doing its damage.
I have never commented on one of these blogs before, but reviewing the comments, I see a lack of constitutional knowledge. The Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights does not award us the right to keep and bear arms. The right to keep and bear arms and defend ourselves against tyranny is a natural right granted by God — not government. The Second Amendment is directed solely at the Federal Government. It is simply a restriction that says the federal government cannot make any laws that would restrict the people’s natural right to keep and bear arms. That said, the government is already operating in the unconstitutional and unlawful, so we can plainly see the government no longer respects the Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights. The only restraint left is 100,000,000+/- armed patriots! May we never lose our courage. Keep your trigger fingers limber & may God grant us success!
American deer hunters are the largest armed army in the world. The motto needs to be for every armed citizen all you have to do is kill just one. If KJO became the cry to stop a government gone mad they would run out of people long before the citizens ran out of shooters. Citizens would never win a pitched battle against government forces but they wear uniforms so they don’t kill each other which easily identify them as targets everywhere they go. If your goal is KJO you can get yours anywhere at anytime. If you were to get more than one it would be OK but one is all everyone needs. The Left Wing Loons know this which is why they are so intent on disarming honest citizens as they can’t cram their insane social agendas down the public’s throat when the public has a means to resist.
Gentlemen, I have a friend who’s sons are attending West Point. They had the misfortune of having obama speak to them awhile back. Before the speech the cadets apparently were given a questionnaire asking them if they would fire on american civils if ordered to. The cadets apparently were surprised at such a question being purposed to them. And what I find interesting , is gun sales have sky rocketed since stupid (Obama) had taken office. I think our forefathers had some great insight and that’s why the second amendment is where it’s at in the constitution. The law abiding citizens in our country need to start stepping up as a force of many to stop the obama administration, bloomberg, soros type people from destroy ing our freedom…if they outlaw guns citizens will be made felons with the pen obama uses to mess up every other thing he trys to put into law. I just hope when the stuff hits the fan every citizen bands together to stop the feds or local government. I also, hope that the military and law enforcement side with the law abiding citizens. Main thing though, is to get obama, holder. Biden, Harris, fienstien , bloomberg, soros, and the harry reids of the world outsted. The morales and Christian faith are being attacked more so then ever…we have to defend it at what ever the cost.
Yes law dawg, that Q has gone out to many involved with the military, top to bottom.
The wrong answer gets you walking papers.
Civil unrest is the 1st goal.
The ones that answer yes will join foreigners in the UN to go against America.
Their new world order is the final goal.
Watch Bill Whittle on Firewall concerning our Military; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DS2wXSKF5k&feature=player_detailpage
The answer to “Would you fire on American civilians if ordered” can only be answered by “Doing what?”
Upholding the Constitution could mean doing exactly that if they are terrorists posing an eminent danger to other civilians. If they are simply citizens in the act of defending the Constitution by exercising their right to speak, assemble, vote, practice their faith, keep and bear arms, or anything else guaranteed to them as a right by our Founding Fathers, then firing on them would be a highly illegal order which should not be obeyed and the answer is a resounding “NO!”
So asking that question in the complete absence of context must have an ulterior and political motivation, I agree.
It won’t be US Military – IF “it” happens He’ll be calling on his muslim brotherhood and NATO (my opinion), there’s already been Polish troops armed and in (NATO?) uniform engaged in joint “exercises” around several major cities.
It will be one heck of a line to cross an American killing another American, in this way, either way you look at it, fortunately (I don’t believe) there are a whole lot of muslims in the military – unless they lied as well…
“A Nation/People in fear, is/are a Nation/People easily led”… “Live Free or Die”
Slim is likely a CIA stooge stirring it up anyway…
No, Not the US Gov.. There are too many people loyal to this great republic. There is however a supranational threat which cannot be easily identified nor quantified but you see the effects of its power and stature.
1. We see the effects of this entities power. It has asset stripped the western world.
2. Its organization is supranational
3. The people who are behind it are not “normal people”.
Just who does this describe ? Your answer is below
The people who lead to the people at the top
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAAoDjCW0tc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbfl3iyA6bA
The Money Trail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1svGIBKaE_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m6ZVVlCK-0&spfreload=1
A breakthrough energy device not yet available to the public
Ecat.com
Demonstration of electrogravitics . Dr Boyd Bushman Sr Fellow Lockheed Skunkworks. Talks about an energy source “BEYOND NUCLEAR” Think Hydrogen Bomb.. Now think about what Dr Richard Feymann said “Their is more energy in the 1 Meter^3 vacuum of space than would take to boil all the oceans of the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNPBYtJyfZo
Obviously many of you whose worlds are made up of what you see, touch, smell, hear and understand will limit your ability to fathom or gestate the gravity of what I am speaking of. Most of you will assume notions which preclude lucid thoughts regarding any possibilities outside what you know and believe. Set beliefs aside for a moment don’t judge the information because if you measure it with what you are able to understand you will never come close to the truth. A conspiracy so grand of scale you will most likely end with flouting statements denigrating both the material and myself. By in large.. because you have not done the due diligence to even attempt understand the material set forth.
Take for instance a fact which I would say 98% of you know nothing about or have any inclination to discover or understand. The development of a new human species. Again you will undoubtedly mock this too because you have nothing to gauge whether it be true or not. Yet here it is for all to see..
Transhumanism re-engineering men into supermen.. Those who know of Hitlers aspirations to create genetically superior humans takes a back seat to the technological breakthroughs in genetics and cybernetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnNKpGdhnos
My point is not to call attention to ones focus in light of these changes as shown above. My point is to demonstrate that outside out preview of allowed knowledge their is a movement afoot which shapes our destinies by powers which are difficult to fathom much less understand. Imagine if you will for a moment when these superhumans emerge. A predator race who is at the top of the food chain capable of disguising themselves to have the appearance of average men. We would be at a supreme disadvantage all things being equal. Mankinds DNA only deviates 1.5-1.75% from the ape. Imagine if you will a new species of man whose DNA deviates a order of magnitude from that. On an evolutionary scale that would be several billion years of evolutionary change.
What does this have to do with the article above. Everything. Superior fire power & superior intellect a collective hive intellect through telephony. People could easily mistake these creatures as god like. What can hundreds of trillions of dollars buy as the world is asset stripped ? How could the ‘ENTIRE’ world economy be drained so badly ? Did you think that a military toilet seat actually costs $5,000 or a crescent wrench $1,200 or that Dov Zakheim EX-comptroller of the Pentagon loose over 4 Trilloin Dollars ? And that my friends is just the tip of the iceberg.
I have personally witnessed energy weapons well in excess of several Giga Joules from an aircraft ! To give you a frame of reference to what I am speaking about 500-1,000 Mega Joules is the typical energy released in a lightning bolt. NO nuclear power source can release this much energy in a few picoseconds. NONE! One much question then be lead to the conclusion that a power source “Beyond Nuclear” is then employed.
Do we have something to fear.. I will let you answer this question.. I have Jesus so I don’t fear anything that can destroy my flesh.
Hi PhaTz , in your conclusion, the statement made is a good way to think, so as to get on with your life.
I like the way you think, and your on the right track, but I feel the rabbit hole goes even deeper than you’ve imagined so far.
You may think what your saying is far fetched or unbelievable, but you actually simplified it a bit.
Our situation gets much more variable and complicated.
But like you said, you’ve got nothing to fear.
I have an open mind, and am an information gatherer.
Thanks for your input.
Soldiers are trained to follow orders. Marginalize the people as crackpots and see what happens.
Waco, Ruby Ridge, how soon we forget.
Federal law requires everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the Armed Forces of the United States to take the enlistment oath.
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
how come the ncis has not arrested the people trying to change or remove the Constitution of the United States
Think of this.
How many of you own more than one gun? How many of you can shoot more than one at a time effectively? I know, me neither. But I know lots of guys that have half a dozen bolt or lever action rifles and a few pistols and a couple three shot guns.
So, in theory one of the many millions of gun owners in the country could create a rifle squad at the drop of a dime. What if ten thousand could do that? a hundred thousand?
Add to that the fact that the total number of licensed huntrs alone in the states of MI, Minn, Wis and Penn. outnumber the total of the standing army of the US.
Then, once you are done back there, come to the rural west, where the rifle is king. “Nuestros rifles tienen piernes largas”– “Our rifles have long legs”
According to industry scources ammo companies are runnin’ 24/7 to satisfy the needs of the five million or so new shooters inspired by the actions of the current administration.
Any talk of real gun control now is farcical at best, that train has left the station.
Further, ANY person wearing a uniform, right down to dog catcher or mail man would be a target. I think we would see major shedding!
Would any sort of rebellion be just all kindsa ugly and bloody? You bet!
And we are nowhere even close to having one thank God!
To those that would say differently I would ask. You still have a roof?, a bed?,did you go to bed hungry? wake up hungry? you can still drive the roads and travel unchallanged, you can still go shooting? Buy ammunition? Vote?
No, until people are well and truely hurting, there will be no uprising.
VOTE!!! it’s how the thing works.
I hate to have to let you in on the bad news Indagila.
The vote gets cheated.
A better call may be; “Do a recount”
The Dems haven’t figured out how to cheat that….yet.
Yeah the reason Hitler wanted the A-bomb so bad was not for Europe or Russia (at least not at first when things were going well). The Nazis knew even their magnificent “master race” army would be whittled to pieces trying to conquer a nation full of well-armed Alvin Yorks behind every bush. They knew the only way to take America would be with super-weapons. Now, the chances of our own military pressing the nuclear Button on America are pretty slim since they’d be killing their own families and destroying their own nation. They would have to wage a ground war and they’d run out of drone missiles and other ordnance real fast because the places those come from would be the first sabotaged. The soldiers that didn’t desert due to the orders being illegal would soon be down to just the ammo they were issued and would be sniper bait. The 2a still rocks!
I was in VN 69-70 and 70-71. I was given lessons about “asymmetrical warfare” by people that had been fighting that way for generations, and those forces we were fighting were not wholeheartedly supported by the population. Yes we stomped them into a bloody puddle every time we could corner them, but it was usually like trying to catch smoke with a net. The only sane way to fight an insurgency like that is to remove the population, and that does not work either.
A. You go after the lawmakers,they will not be in tanks nor apc’s.
B Hopefully the police who constantly take bs from anarchist and people on the dole,may be not so quick to arrest or stop armed individuals.
C. Pray the military sides with the people as they did in the French revolution. I promise you some will.
D. Lastly pray it never comes down to it and things can be worked out in agreement.
#4 is the point of the Founders going through with the revolution to give us a nation where the People can put the right ones in offiice they want or throw them out by the same system called the voting booth. Only trhey have to show up and do it. 60% of registered voters(blu-dogs,mods, indies+repubs) did NOT even show up in 2012 for Romney over MAO’bama(as usual).
Praying is right and good but a Godly life with involved civic duty is better ~!
If you think Americans can not stand up to the might that is the U.S. Military ask the russian veterans who rolled into afghanistan in the 1980’s how well it went for them.
One man with courage makes a majority.
taking 4-ever for my post to go up………..like censorship is happening leave the fucking shenanigans elseware
Why do we have to repeat history? Read that Vietnam echos, despite the Regulars (Chinese), it sounds very familiar. Been there done that. Watch Red Dawn another oldie like me. A small determined force can inflict horrible damaged on a large well equipped professional force. Remember the Alamo, yes they lost the battle but won the war. Napoleon and Germany against Russia I can go on. But suffice it to say Don’t Tread On Me!
I don’t believe that it will be our oun military that we will have to worry about.
it will be mostly foreign troops. I believe They will come from Russia, China, or the UN.
The insurgents have a valuable ally in their lack of technology infrastructure. Primarily, the U.S. Governmebt conducts mass surveillance of its citizens far beyond the revelations of Snowden. What this means is that they’re collecting EVERY BIT OF INFORMATION. Voice, video, meta, location, etc. There’s no filter on what they take if you’ve got a digital device.
The tendency of Americans to share everything provides the intelligence community (FBI/DHS) with a roadmap of sentiment and relationships that are far more predictive of the leanings of a citizen than attire, locality and any other data point you can think of.
This data is collated, sorted and tagged. Some people are Liberal Extremists, some conservative pacifists, and others discordant anarchists. There’s a rainbow of categorization and archetypes given to each and everyone one of us. Like the insurance industry manages and weighs risks based upon data input, so does our governments panopticon.
So, as our nation is sending SOF around our country to conduct clandestine training operations on US soil, what one may want to consider is the possibility that it is far more preferable to operate without the notice of the citizenry in managing and dealing with risk profiles BEFORE they escalate.
The AR15 rifle in your closet is useless when they come in force, in the dark, while your children are sleeping, your wife is dreaming and your dog is napping. Alternately, it would also be far more easier to just grab you on your way to work, or in another situation where you would not be prepared.
The second amendment, protected by our mitary forces, is not the true national issue. The soldiers are taking orders, playing to the engrained sociopathic tendencies that a marshal society asks of it. They may have great weapons, great technology and great psychology. However, why they do not win in the Middle East, nor would they win in an American Revolution is simply this.
They do not have a great cause…
If you cling to your rifle harder than you cling to your loved ones, your house is not in order. It is a tool. It is an unfortunate tool. Hope that you may never raise your rifle on a fellow countryman, or another soul for that matter.
So, insurgents of Iraq have the benefit of not having spilled their leanings onto the internet for Palantir sift through and classify. They’ve not photographed their friends, or shared frequent cellular coordinates for Verizon and AT&T to share.
Simply put, your Facebook like on any anti-government anything is more ammunition to kick down the door under the cover of darkness than anything else.
The soldiers and officers executing orders are not given a backstory. They are not going to be from your neighborhood. Their kids won’t have gone to school with yours. You are just another mission in their never ending cultivated bloodthirst that is a byproduct of having been raised in a sub pbvipusly violent society.
Keep your rifles as a symbol of the trust and responsibility out ancestors bestowed upon a nation. When people fall back to primitive fears of homosexuality, islamaphobia and pick any other form of ignorance, know this.
When shit hits the fan, WE ARE ALL ONE.
One Nation. Of the people. By the people. For the people.
Exercise your first ammendment so that you will never have to rely upon your second.
Molon Rabe…
I am a Spartan.
Back in the day their was a singing group called Steppinwolf who out to music what you describe so well.
It was simply called “Monster”
Walmart and every dept. store does all the same info gathering and even more.
May 16, 2013 with a no knock warrant police chief Louis Ross was shot 4-times after breaking into wrong home in the middle of the night by homeowner Dallas Norton, he was exonerated of any charges. The chief was saved by a bullet proof vest and this has been happened a bunch of times. Kicking in doors in the middle of the night is not wise in the USA, would you do it?
To think that the police would sympathize with a citizen militia is quite naive. The police didn’t hesitate to crush the occupy movement. The occupiers were peaceful and most of them were well within their rights to peacefully assemble and air their grievances. Let some police blood start running in the streets and we will have a full blown gestapo on our hands. I am not saying a citizen militia could not prevail but it would not be as easy as many might think. Our modern police force has an us against them mentality. They could easily justify any acts of brutality as simply doing their job, Right now throwing a flash bang grenade in a baby’s crib is considered as “justifiable” even when the police are at the wrong house. I could see elements of the military switching to back a citizen militia but not the police.
You are probably right about many police forces but I think our best hope lies within many of the sheriff departments across the country. Most sheriffs are good honest hard working people.
Absolutely not the case. The so called “occupy movement” was a mess of human ignorant swine afforded every concession not legally available by law. And still it was pathetic animal farm with rape tents and defecation in the streets etc.
What you say is seemly he case until a bunch of (hundreds) are ventilated and their so called cause is suddenly not worth it as the decent officers will turn on the criminal cops as the ire of the public in general will rise as a specter no one will want.
Look at the Bundy stand off a year ago, they knew to back off or 10-thousand-plus would’ve been there over night.
As far as Ruby ridge and WACO= never again, and we’re still waiting for answers, as also with Fast+Furious, Benghazi, IRS, EPA etc.
This still is OUR nation whether some of OUR employees get it or not, WE just haven’t got out of OUR chair- YET.
Remember that with dear old DAD , then U’all paid attention to what MOM was tellin ya was gonna happen, hahahahaha ~!
Man you have poor informational sources.
The occupy wall street assholes were just that.
They needed to go occupy some jobs.
Stop infringing on, or living off, other people.
You can run roughshod over a standing army but the will of patriots cannot be defeated.
Remember, the Japanese would not continue on to California and invade the U.S. after Pearl Harbor. ” There is a gun in every house. We cannot possibly defeat the Americans on their soil.”
Just one comment and observation.
Afghanistan, 12 years there and the world most powerful military is unable to defeat the opposition
Only because of limited and restricted considerations to respect the culture as the Afghani’s have been constently invaded since Alexander the great and just having let the Soviets crush them for a decade didn’t help bolster their trust of foreigners even helpful ones.
IF Pakistan was open to go get the Taliban + al Qaeda, everything would have been different too as they had a safety zone to then come in to threaten the population with death if they didn’t ‘play-ball’ with’em. It was a balancing act not to rock the boat all around because WE are the USA and don’t want huge collateral damage to follow OUR history. Problem Pakistan was already nuclear and you can only push any Muslim nation so far and the crazies come out.
Which of course is why WE must NOT let Iran go nuclear as it’ll be a domino effect nuc-arms race then ~!
Rules of engangement for that campaign are one of the primary reasons we got mired there.
Look at what those little guys wearing black pajamas did to the “might” of the U. S. military in Vietnam.
The more correct statement would be
Look at what the Washington DC politicians did to the “might” of the U.S. military in Vietnam.
Absolutely right. It was FDR/Truman+Dems that gave us who us worldwide communism and the U.N. which gave us a divided world and Korea, Vietnam and the same in every conflict since.
America as policeman, but not vindicators. Only the offset controlled balance of power in the world by the IMF/WB+the FED/IRS= a gift from Woodrow Wilson+Dems too.
Nix the Fed+IRS w/ all unelected agencies with unConstitutional powers return the Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches of power back to their proper places, term limits with the needed oversight all around by WE the People who have long since abdicated OUR responsibilities for 100-yrs now. Letting someone else do it for us, they did, do and now have dismissed us as irrelevant…….Not so fast yet -you wing-nut Far-Leftists. WE ain’t been heard loud enough yet ~!
(Rep.) Richard Nixon came in and smoked the shit out of those Black PJ’d friends of Jane Fonda & Dems
Democrats start the shit and Republicans end it.
Get educated; https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BWVTvfD3bmU
(Rep.) Richard Nixon came in and smoked the shit out of those Black PJ’d friends of Jane Fonda & Dems
Democrats start the shit and Republicans end it.
Get educated; https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BWVTvfD3bmU
When fighting in Iraq, there were political ramifications to killing innocents. Can you spell Syria? I do believe the vast majority of US troops would not turn on their own citizens…but some zealots would for sure. Live on 2nd Amendment!!!!
Everything you guys say is true between armed drones and killbots a) you won’t see the enemy b) the killbots like in terminator have only one order kill you between enhance senses that will detect fear and concealed weapons you guys are toast it won’t be the 2a that saves you but people like Alan Turing that will save you but Uncle Sam is proactively trying to find them then it’s silver or lead unless you protect them but then again if there gay or transgendered who cares so think twice before you smash their heads in.
It is obvious that you have a pro homosexual stance and it was a threat nationally for blackmail and Soviet extortion then.
Now tho it’s gone overboard for 1-2% of the population. It isn’t a crime now; though never should’ve been taken off the DMS listing as it still is abnormal+ not an asset but a detriment any way it’s looked at realistically. No-one is advocating erradication.
Not all geniuses are queer nor was he the only great mind that brought computers to fruition as they are today, or even close.
Late 1800’s fiction writers-H.G.Wells+Jules Verne predicted submarines,airplanes,time +space travel w/countless unknowns.
The 2nd-Amendment has been covered above by various folks as to what it still means in regards to the “teeth” of citizens Rights and just how seriously it should be taken by all concerned for whatever the position taken.
Artificial intelligence must be programmed, controlled and powered by someone human unless it can become totally self-sufficient(Terminator).
And that isn’t in sight for many decades to come if ever ~!
It may be worse than you think.
It will most likely start by Obama calling the UN in because we have civil unrest in America (which he’s provoking now)
It wont be our guys we need to worry about, it will be the rest of the world (order)
And guns may not work so good against chem attacks from the sky.
Good luck.
info to ponder—> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eN4XICOyRb8
I’d love to believe that military and police would not act against the citizenry. However… Hurricane Katrina / New Orleans demonstrated how quickly things can fall apart. Here is one person’s experiences, a good read. Many shades of grey…
http://www.thebangswitch.com/katrina-gun-confiscation-my-experience/
Another point: any sort of action by civilian or military commanders against the civilian population (if this nightmare scenario were ever to happen on a large scale) will be incremental, nothing too blatant to start with. Orders will feel reasonable to the average service person, and also if spun right will be welcomed by the civilian population. A slow tightening of the screws. Areas will be pacified incrementally (“In other news, a local National Guard unit was deployed to the North Ridge area after several fire trucks were fired upon by members of the Three-Seven gang this afternoon.”) Curfews will be invoked. This for urban areas; rural areas will have their own problems, but for example any sort of vehicular travel will be limited. Etc., etc.
If done right, one day we’ll all look around doe-eyed at each other and wonder, “When the hell did they invoke Martial Law?”
Of course that is a good point Jackpine.
Only that was well before the awakening “sleeping-giant” created by MAO’bama+Dems with also the observation of those things on video and all KGB tactics since. The gutless KGB type LEO’s will hide their uniforms once a few other crooked cops get ventilated for violating citizens to take their goods and abuse them.
Remember that big fat New Orleans cop knocking the tiny 80 some year old grandma down and grappling with her in her own kitchen? What was your first thought as to what should happen that very second to him in your mind as you watched that; I thought so = gatorbait!!! Decent LEO’s would rather throw their uniforms away then be apart of a uniformed brutal thug gang of terroristic criminals.That choice would be forced on them by virtue of wrong actions taken around them. Then it would become a civil war in the ranks of decent LEO’s shooting the creeps or lose the uniform and join the Americans.
American people will only take so much to then in unison march right over any line -into OUR responsibilities to set things “aright”. Just like at the Bundy ranch- times a million.
Then it would be – “CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE”. OUR Founding warrior population(37%) did not back down from the largest most powerful army on earth; just because it was right to do so to gain freedom in Liberty.
Why would WE the People now allow it to be taken?
Just to know OUR Founding story is unforgetable, and is an incentive to stand, as that truly is who real Americans are at heart -AND- for the right reasons. They are still among us and many of them are us.
This -IS- why the American story in history-w/civics should be put at the forefront of education once again -from cradle at home through all higher learning, as well as national historical dates openly recognized and celebrated.
Yeah yeah the jerks and dopey goons+loons will always be among us -BUT- will be silent when the majority openly acknowledge what’s right. That is still the Silent+Moral-Majority that is growing more vocal daily a WE get pushed into the corner and silence is no longer respected as acceptable. Just my thoughts on the matter ~!
I have to agree with Jim F. One factor not mentioned in this excerpt is the refusal of military & law enforcement personnel to comply with un-Constitutional or unlawful orders. You have only to consider the recent refusal to do so of many county sheriffs , as well as Oathkeepers.org.
And thats the problem with Americans. Afraid to loose what you have. I would not give up my weapons for the fact of everything you are afraid to loose. Some men die so others may be free.
Having served in the armed forces I can tell you our military members are not blind, thoughtless robots who would follow illegal orders. All who serve and served swore an oath to uphold and protect our US constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. No commander in his right mind would order our military personnel to engage our own civilian population. On the other hand, were military commanders able to identify “revolutionary forces” who presented a threat to our nation, even if our own citizens, I can see where our military personnel would engage as ordered. However, if the “identified threat” was not a real threat, or if engaging the alleged threat was seen as an attack on our own citizens in violation of our constitution, I have every confidence our military personnel would be intelligent enough to know the orders were not legal and not pursue a war on our own citizenry. These are our fellow citizens, with families and loved ones of their own – just like the rest of us. It is bad enough to have to engage an enemy in a foreign land, or to think of having to engage an invading force on our own soil. Things are not so divisive in our nation to allow sensible persons, to include our military, to openly begin to wage a civil war. Unless food or safe drinking water begin to come into short supply, a true national emergency occurs, or a pandemic breaks out, I feel we will be fine. It is the politicians we need to keep putting pressure on, to keep them in check – not our military personnel. They are the ones who ought fear an armed citizenry. If the common citizenry were to take up arms it would and should be against tyrannical politicians, not our military – and if the reason for such an uprising was clearly enough seen as being rightful and against an oppressive government, I bet the military would side with the citizens who are fighting to preserve the freedoms and rights so many fought and dies for.
And fat-cat crooked politicos don’t want to get shot to keep their nice ensconced parasitic positions,
Their loyalties are to themselves, money and concubines kept on the side as well as their families too ~!
There are a couple other aspects that the OP didn’t cover that would seem to make the original intent of the Second Amendment valid still.
If the military was attempting to crush a popular revolt, there would likely be significant sympathy for the revolt within the military. After all, most of them are our sons, daughters, other relatives and friends, making it very difficult to dehumanize the enemy. This could seriously hamper their success.
I think it is accurate to state that the resources, education, communication and military experience broadly available to and within the general population far exceeds that in most countries. With sufficient will, this should allow a populist revolt to be far more successful than what we’ve seen in the Middle East recently.
Of course a regime could determine that with a population of 300+ million, collateral damage and the deaths of innocents were reasonable tradeoff for control or at least as a show of willingness to “do what is necessary.”
It doesn’t seem likely that it would ever come to this, but “prediction is difficult, especially about the future.”
Jim F., I tend to agree with you, but don’t forget that if our government decided to make a citizenship offer to illegal immigrants who join our military (which some have suggested doing), then we would have a military with members who would be far more willing to turn their weapons on the citizens. The Constitution would mean absolutely nothing to them, that isn’t why they’re here.
True, but also why they wouldn’t have allegiance to die for some wing-nut elitist regime while their hope and good will for ‘their wife, kids, parents and other relatives goes out the window as just casualties of war’ ~!
The point that the OP makes–that an insurgency, aka guerilla warfare, can tie a conventional force in knots and survive years of decidedly brutal warfare was graphically illustrated in the recent New York Times bestseller “April 1865, the Month that Saved the Nation”, by David Winnik. Mr Winnik describes the inhuman brutality that characterized the battles in Kansas and Missouri prior to and during the war, literally a war of terror and attrition, that could not be stopped except by garrisoning the entire country side. Mr. Winnik describes other wars, prior to and after the Civil War, including the insurgencies in Iraq, now Syria, Pakistan and Afghanistan, Myanmar, Malaysia, Viet Nam and of course the American British Colonies, and on and on where a poorly equipped, poorly trained and often practically illiterate guerrilla force is able to hold off well-organized and well-equipped conventional force for decades. Indeed, in most of these wars, the insurgency has repeatedly prevailed over a “superior” force.
I think the Feds know they don’t have to fight you to take away your guns. The majority of citizens would comply to a new law that made it a felony to possess a firearm. I know a lot of people talk smack but when it comes down to do I want to loss my job, house go to jail. I won’t be able to feed my family without a job I had to turn my guns in. Just look at all the heroes on here that have surrendered there constitutional rights already. I think very few in America own there own land much less know how to be self sufficient with that land. Not that it matters the few that do have herds of cattle the Feds could blow them up there already counting them with satellites anyway. Don’t get me wrong I’m all for the 2a. I’m card carrying NRA member. That’s just one war that’s been tryed and found wanting 4-12-1861
Slim, please turn in your NRA membership card. The answer to the question whether the Second is too weak to withstand the government is NO! The armed, citizen militia, though informal and scattered around the USA, vastly out numbers whats left of the US Armed forces. Much of local law enforcement would side with the population as would elements of National and State Guard units. I never want to see Americans shooting or hiding from our government forces, but I’ll be damned if I will find myself and my wife unarmed in a hostile environment. So, again, Slim, please turn in your NRA card and go hide someplace.
Right on Rick, I agree, I am 72, but my trigger finger still works great, there are 90 million gun owners out there and not all are pussified like that, I could theoretically take out many before they got me and I would NOT want to live in a subservient pussy society anyway, and if even half decide to fight, it is still the biggest standing military in the world, and all their technology would not win against dedicated “night” fighter guerrillas sniping at them and “picking” their battles, and most of them would NOT want to fight for some tinpot faggot dictator anyway.
My NRA card is my proudest possession and I will back it up to the death.
Doug, based on history, only 3% would fight, but that’s still 2.7 million, about 400,000 more than the combined members of the U.S. military, and only a small percentage of those are combat troops. I agree with several others here that many, if not most of active U.S. combat troops would refuse to fire on U.S. civilians. And with political correctness firmly entrenched in the U.S. military, I doubt that those who would fire on civilians would be a very formidable force. I really hope we don’t have to find out, but my gut tells me otherwise. We have some extremely evil people in positions of power in this country.
Count me in as one of the 2.7 million. MOLON LABE.
i wonder if there will be foreign troops such as China or Russia joking are communist regime we have in there now! How would that tip the scale?
Right on doug !!!
Rick…Doug…. right on. Many of us mature gents feel the same way. I know several other vets like myself who agree. We didn’t come this far to be duped by this administration. On the state level not many New Yorkers registered their guns. They told Dictator Cuomo to stick it Same as in Connecticut.
I have always said that it isn’t the guys with the AR-15’s they need to worry about but the guys with the bolt action scoped hunting rifles. Especially the varmint hunters. We have millions of “snipers” that shoot regularly. I am getting pretty old but I can still hit a ground hog at 500 yards when I need to. Someone figured out that if you took all the people that bought hunting licenses in W.Va., Pa., Michigan, and Wisconsin they would constitute the largest army in the world. That is just 4 out of 50 states. That is why they want to take away our guns with laws. they know they can’t do it by force.
you all have it right on here . i will be 62 in a few days .i was at the range last weekend sighting in my old war rifle .
with all the news of other country’s wanting a peice of us . i keep my weapons in turn i want to live free
You forgot to figure in all the foreign and un troops that are gonna be apart of this when the hammer comes down. All of this has been prophesised and that’s why we see little by little the Christians being demonized and referred to as terrorists!
Makes me sick but it all has to go down, I pray our lord returns swiftly and puts an end to all this but in all likelihood , the rapture won’t happen till 3&1/2 yrs of the tribulation has transpired and make no mistake… Your faith a WILL BE TESTED … Wether it’s a gun in your face by some Russian speaking Muslim trying to convert u and have you deny our one only true GOD. DONT TAKE THAT MARK!
absolutely!!!!
I agree with Slim. Can’t say I would be willing to give up firearms, but to those that think there is this huge force that the military couldn’t stop….look at the aftermath from hurricane Katrina, New Orleans, the gun confiscation there.
Reality… your in a bar talking smack…. when it comes down to the line, all the sudden there is …. how many that have your back? Even less that are willing to stand on that line shoulder to shoulder.
No government is ever too big not to be overthrown. History tells us that. As mentioned above, many that are in the military would jump ship and join, many would not fight. Regardless, the right to remove tyrants no matter how strong, is ours if we need to. Whining about how government could do this or that is superfluous none sense. The premise of this article is exactly the reason the 2nd amendment is so important and even more relevant now than it was even 50 years ago.
I think you’d be surprised. Keep the faith and pray in the meantime.
Tim2 and Slim are among the 97% who would rather “be red than dead”; I’ll live free, or die!
The guard and local law enforcement would side with the people? Just like they did after Katrina?
Katrina? Half the police force ran off to care for and defend their own families (they’re human as well) and then one has to take into account just how many soldiers and LEA would actually follow illegal orders against The Constitution and the citizens it’s represents, and not be on the side of Freedom, Righteousness and Truth? I believe there’s many that would refuse to prop up some dictator in this country no matter how much he lies about everything. Those that lay down their rights to be trampled on deserve what they get.
Many strawmen and fantasies here. For one, there was no real armed resistance against the government after Katrina. Perhaps a couple bad guys, but the law abiding handed over their guns. If there was a real insurrection it would be a whole different game. I am not an anarchist or advocating anything violent but I have read some history, recent and otherwise. Obviously the government has some big guns, but are they going to nuke or carpet bomb cities in their own country? How long did it take us to take total control of Viet Nam?
The people fighting America in South Vietnam had a constant supply of arms and men from North Vietnam. They also had supply lines that helped provide food and medicines as well. Where would an armed resistance get any help in the US? Our border with Mexico could be shut down in one day if need be. Our coasts could also be closed easily. Only our border with Canada with all the tree cover would be open but who would provide the weapons? Face it, we have to be self sufficient so we would need to stock up on everything and be able to hide it well. Not easy with the technology today. It would be better to get the super conservatives to vote for a good Republican instead of staying home and letting a Democrat take over again.
Another thing about Katrina was that both LEO and the people knew that was a temporary situation, and that things would return to “normal” sooner or later. Civil war isn’t like that. And, just like the average citizen couldn’t count on resupply from outside the country, the government couldn’t count on replacements for those who wouldn’t fire on US citizens either. The size of the force would only go down, unless they brought in foreign troops (UN anybody?) or drafted people and held their families as hostages. There are literally hundreds of thousands of citizens who know where the armories are, and the ammunition depots on army bases, and in any real dust up those things would be attacked first. The real problem is Homeland Security, because those people haven’t taken any oath that I’m aware of, to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and they’ve been ordering up a hell of a lot of ammo. There are your jack booted thugs, if there will be any at all. But once there are a few atrocities, the government has nowhere to look for help except outside the country. And any government that invites foreigners in to kill citizens, will only survive as a dictatorship. And then probably not long. We owe China too much money and they’re not going to let us default on those loans without reposessing the collateral.
Another thing about Katrina was that both LEO and the people knew that was a temporary situation, and that things would return to “normal” sooner or later. Civil war isn’t like that. And, just like the average citizen couldn’t count on resupply from outside the country, the government couldn’t count on replacements for those who wouldn’t fire on US citizens either. The size of the force would only go down, unless they brought in foreign troops (UN anybody?) or drafted people and held their families as hostages. There are literally hundreds of thousands of citizens who know where the armories are, and the ammunition depots on army bases, and in any real dust up those things would be attacked first. The real problem is Homeland Security, because those people haven’t taken any oath that I’m aware of, to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and they’ve been ordering up a hell of a lot of ammo. There are your jack booted thugs, if there will be any at all. But once there are a few atrocities, the government has nowhere to look for help except outside the country. And any government that invites foreigners in to kill citizens, will only survive as a dictatorship. And then probably not long. We owe China too much money and they’re not going to let us default on those loans without repossessing the collateral.
Most of our Military is made up of the most brave men and women on earth, and serve to protect this land and our way of life.
Most wont fallow ill instruction or go against their oath.
I would stand with them.
Guys like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2NauQzirzE&feature=player_detailpage
PS. You may find out real soon what happens, come 7 / 15 / 15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mxb9Kk1KK8&feature=player_detailpage
That’s wus up brother! #2a #killemallletgodsortthemout
Great post Rick. Only one other point: The entire US military would not comply with the orders to fight fellow citizens. As a former sailor for 14 years, we often had those philosophical discussions about “What if?” Most were like me, and would leave the Service to join our fellow patriots in defense of our country against an obviously corrupt Gov’t, in essence I believe we would see a military coup d’état, followed by a new election to form a new Gov’t. Maybe this time we could get it right. My biggest fear is the liberals who would inform on the patriots. We have to remember, liberals aren’t scared of anything…They are scared of EVERYTHING!
If it comes down to giving up what I have to a evil corrupt government just so I can continue to live my life like a sleep in the posture or locked up in the barn..i will take death and hope that a death will inspire others to live free the way we were intended to live…my one hope is that our own solders have enough knowledge to know that we the people are fighting for the people against a evil government that will turn on them if they don’t remain as sheep in a pasture…if it comes down to it and we need to give our lifes for freedom …I PRAY TO GOD that we stand together for a common cause of freedom for all….and i pray that it doesn’t come to that and no one has to give their life…. MAY GOD BLESS US ALL AND THE FREE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Speak for yourself. And don’t give them the idea, at least not in these last couple od years. Third, would the military be willing to move against the citizens? I was military, and I wouldn’t.
This is the best point. I think all of us that served our Country would not turn on it’s citizens when the chips are down. That includes past and present. This alone would stem the tide of the government and its so called advantage. They would find theirselves in quite a pickle, I think should they try to guide/command our military into such a conflict. It is sad indeed that we are having this discussion. Reality is understanding.
Honestly, I don’t think we would ever be fighting the military. As ex-military myself, I am fairly certain most of the U.S. Armed forces would refuse to fight against the civilian population. Rather I think, we would be fighting the Federal and Local law enforcement. Those institutions contain enough thugs with little to no empathy or sympathy for their fellow citizens. The Kapo mentality runs deep through their ranks.
Bdub. What are you? A cop hater? I retired after 20 years on a large PD. If you believe your garbage, don’t call the police when some thug breaks in. All the guys and gals I worked with were dedicated to enforcing the law, which apparently you don’t like, and doing it right. The media and Obama are trying to sew mistrust of the local law enforcement. Why? Because the locals have a vested interest in protecting their town. You owe the local law enforcement people a big apology.
True the older seasoned troops wont act against are own peeps …….that’s why they are trying to get rid of the older solders and bring in the young dumb fucks who do nothing but fallow orders, that’s scary butts its happening, they want a soldier to do what hes ordered to do not question it, brain washing the pups like robots….. my opinion of course what you think bout that?
man put it up already fuck
man put it up already fuck c-mon
I just retired from the military, most recently as a professor teaching Ethics at National Defense University. One section of class was talking about The Trail of Tears. (Please look it up. President Jackson ordered the Army to move the Cherokee and other tribes from areas they occupied to Oklahoma.) Even though the Supreme Court had ruled Jackson’s order unconstitutional, the Army leaders still moved the Indians, causing many to die. I asked my students what they would do, and way too many would admit that they would simply follow the President’s order.
You can’t divorce political and social context from that event. To the American soldier the Cherokee were a strange, and unknown people, with little or no common language. Many soldiers probably labored under much miss information about the Cherokee and had no real way to come to a better conclusion that to do as ordered.
No consider that same scenario, but substitute American citizens for the Cherokee – a people the soldiery would share every possible thing in common with. I think you would have a vastly different outcome in that case.
to BDub: I think your analysis is spot on. The Cherokee were not only “the Other”, but they were small in number, so the soldiers would not foresee that the destruction of the country would result if the soldiers “followed orders” by moving the tribe. In addition, the soldiers were not ordered to exterminate the tribe, so there was less moral reason to oppose the orders, whereas the movement of a hundred million+ people to concentration camps has a built-in threat of annihilation and anyone can see that. Many of today’s soldiers are better connected to national and international news, so they could understand the possible negative outcome if the U.S. devolved into just another dictatorship…so they would not want the United States to turn into a nation like some of our major enemies.
Putting millions of Americans in concentration camps for their political beliefs is also OBVIOUSLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and I suspect that quite a few soldiers remember their oath to support and defend the CONSTITUTION “I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic”…and those enemies can include the nominal leaders of the government.
We can also ask whether the government, no matter which evil person tries to seize power, will be stupid enough to find it useful to ACTUALLY USE all those government weapons of mass destruction, knowing that this will cause massive loss of governing legitimacy and loss of economic/military power over the long run. This is a supporting reason that the soldiers themselves would see that the cost-to-benefit ratio weighs heavily against conducting large-scale war against our own citizens.
Only Andrew Jackson was a soldiers soldier beyond MacArthur, Patton and Eisenhower put together.
Only surpassed by George Washington himself, as he had faced down the British Empire’s best(battle tested against Napoleon hisself)in the South and esp New Orleans crushing massive numbers with a few Mt. men, farmers, civilians and mostly militia. This as the last invasion of U.S. soil. Where he made the enemy pay so dearly as to frighten foreign enemies of such a venture even yet today.
He was revered+respected as nothing close to the White House or DC today that would blindly be obeyed as POTUS.
SCOTUS actually has no real teeth- which is why George Washington explained the 2nd-Amendment ‘was the teeth to the 1st-Amendment’.
Jackson also fought and beat the very powerful banks on his word alone.
He was like a God to soldiers and most patriotic Americans for saving the nation by himself. If the Brits would have taken the lower Mississippi they’d have then come down the river from Ft. Detroit etc, as they would’ve then encompassed OUR very weak western border while they could come in then from the North, South and East,
retaking “their Colonies” and would’ve shredded the Treaty of Ghent. All with help from the various Indian tribes murdering and terrorizing across the frontiers in revenge the English had already promised.
You do bring up a really good point Phil, one many can recognize!
Of course you are right with what they are doing to OUR military only WE the People are waking up the “sleeping-giant” comprising of the Silent+Moral-Majority as a rising counter of patriotism to these elitist/socialist Dem plebes.
And this is reaching areas not previously touched by the miracle of OUR Founding, unprecedented for 180-yrs!
Stirred to a deeper level by virtue of looking back over all the mistakes since the incredible Wisdom, Faith and Courage.of OUR Founders.
Yes that sounds optimistic Phil but those of us that’ve loaded the House and retaken the Senate are not going to quit or roll over. MAO’bama can be given the credit for this awakening- w/ACA creating the TEA Party and Patriot movement as well as a ground swell of advocacy of the 2nd-Amendment
As to the Cherokee nation- it is a huge blight in OUR history -BUT- it had been in the works for years by the time it landed on Jackson’s desk. He did NOT wish it into existence. His earlier Indian fighting success was essential in taking Florida from the Brits who took over from Spain, launching terrible Indian raids, incursions and massacre’s into Georgia creating a real animosity toward all the Southern-tribes(Seminole, Creeks etc) the Brits had fired up to turn on Americans.
None of this just happened overnight. It was like having al Qaeda for neighbors for decades.
Just some of my thoughts ~!
I happen to live on the spot where “The Trail of Tears” began. It’s in my back yard, my land belonged to the Cherokee, my 4th great grandmother was Cherokee and I know the history well. The Cherokee were not as you all have stated at all. They were extremely well known to all and had already integrated into the white man’s society by as much as 150 yrs by 1838, when gathered up by the illegal process of the american soldiers and Jackson. They were peaceful and kind, they continually kept giving up their land in treaty after treaty and the only ones that broke those treaty’s was our government. As they say, always follow the money! It was all about GOLD!
Dahlonena GA had the first gold rush in the U.S. and their land had to be taken in order to take all that gold from them. The land lottery gave that land to the white man. The soldiers knew exactly who the Cherokee was and still followed the illegal orders of Jackson just like others have followed the illegal executive actions of Obama. Many whites had already married Cherokee men and women and most communities were already integrated like much of the U.S. is today, a blending of society.
Do not kid yourselves at all, the Civil War was between countrymen-brothers-relatives-soldier against civilians. The military of today train in towns and are being conditioned to fight civilians. Do you really think the buzzing over Miami FL from Blackhalks and Apache helo’s are really to train for Iran or some other foreign land? Just like the training the gov did to teach hate for the Cherokee and other Indians of this country, they are now teaching hate for civil disobedience. They are training us to become used to seeing military on the streets and flying overhead at 50 ft shaking our houses and scaring our kids. Just like the Civil War and other illegal activities where people have been gathered up and taken to internment camps, troops will fire on women and children, they will burn houses just like Wacco TX and Atlanta during the Civil War. Think Gen. Sherman was a fluke? Obama has killed countless thousands using Drones targeting one man but killing entire apartment or housing areas, entire families killed off. Our government doesn’t care about casualties of war as long as they can win some objective or keep up appearances.
If war comes again to this great nation, it will be brutal & bloody and not unlike the Civil war. This time however, it will be neighbor giving up neighbor and people trying to save themselves and their families first. It will look more like Germany of the 1930’s rather than stepping toe to toe in battle. It will be based off list from youtube, google, and gunsamerica. those who have shown their cache of goods will be targeted first and farmers food will be taken second. They will starve us into compliance and will force us to give up our weaponry for food. Unless you have lived in a bubble, you have to realize we have been watched for the past 20 yrs and for the past 10, we have been listed and placed in categories like cattle. Those they have already been watching and know who would fight will be visited first…. its that simple! Think they won’t? The you don’t really know your history nor your United States Government.
mtman2 & billBonney
Good writes.
Your both right.
This country would have been so much better if we totally integrated with the people already here.
That being said, there has always been somebody encroaching on someone else in this great melting pot since stone age.
The difference now is that the flood upon us would have to be the rest of the world, to even think they could conquer.
We here are too many and too brave, for any insurgence of any one nation.
Are you guys aware of this exercise coming on 7/15/2015 through 9/11/2015 ?
Look into it yourselves, and make up your own minds; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mxb9Kk1KK8&feature=player_detailpage
Here’s a guy down playing it; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36gR9a-Db90&feature=player_detailpage
Here’s a guy calling out the previous guys bullshit; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2NauQzirzE&feature=player_detailpage
Your a pussy, slim, maybe your wife can fight for you while you cower in the corner.
Your “job” at that point is to fight like a “real” American MAN, American did not get to this point by giving up at the thought of “MAYBE” losing, they fought on and died until the rest of them won.
Rick is right, give up your NRA card, we don’t need cowards there.
Cant believe what im reading……….Slim i don’t know were you reside at, butt if your giving up your liberties and God given right to be free, and to have free will under God, and if your just rolling over well you wont have a job to go to, you will be told what to do, when to do it and how too, and most likely your family will be taken away .
Know me personally i wasn’t in any of the wars lots of my family has been , Korea, Nam, Afghanistan, my son just returned from the war, he was Army Sniper ,and i assure you, if shit hits the fan , ill be on the front line, and yes most likely will be killed , and im ok with that. there will be thousands that will die, butt its a necessary evil .myself and all the peeps around here are not all talk like you say, the weak are the ones who do nothing the strong are the one who do. I will not hand over my weapons for any reason for anyone, once they get ur guns you might as well be dead, cuz you will be a pet to the globalist of some new world order BS. What have you done in your district to show that we the people have the power . around here we march in front of gov. buildings and they know were pist-off and they seem to be on are side, anyways look around ur house for your balls strap them back on and do what is right as an american , if you don’t and run away with your tail between legs then you deserve everything coming to you, take the blinders off people , its not to late to take this country back , 1st thing is to get rid of that dumb ass in the oval office , wont even say his title he is not worthy of it make me sick ………..crap that’s a hole other task that i don’t have enough time to get into RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR AREN’T YOU TICKED OFF, DO SOMETHING THEN
So when they come to take your arms and you hand them over because you don’t want to lose your job, your house, or your freedom, then what do you think they will do when they decide that any of those are now worthy of confiscation? There will be nothing to stop them at that point. You are now unarmed and most likely defenseless while you abdicate your rights over to government thinking they will be benevolent. I believe, you’ve effectively forfeited your birthright at this point. Maybe no physically, but certainly mentally. Maybe this will never happen at all or so you think, but I suppose you’ve already admitted what you will do once they knock on your door. Resistance is futile and all that right? As a lifetime NRA member myself, I’d suggest that you’ve been wasting your money. There really isn’t a place for ideas like yours in that organization much less America at large. Enjoy counting yourself when you try to go to sleep.
First they came for the Jews then………………………………
Then we Americans got sick of it and beat their ass.
After all our pussys die off we’ll do it again.
I don’t think we will have to fight our military. Most probably wouldn’t follow that order, in fact it may create revolt within its ranks. Remember, these military members, have family and friends in the civilian sector. I am sure most wont follow, and it would only require a few leaders within the ranks to cause a revolution within. I think our biggest worry is Obama drafting illegals into the military, they would have no qualms of firing on US citizens. Can we spell AMNESTY? Another source could also come from the UN. I am sure China would supply troops in exchange for some natural resources. In the end I believe if it came down to it, most of the military would take the side of the American people against all others. Strangely I think if it came down to it, one of the countries I feel may come to our aid would be Russia. Putin has gone encouraged US citizens to keep their guns. Putin, is Russian Orthodox Christian and we all know Obama is actually Muslim. Were it not for Russia and the much more affordable Russian firearms and Ammunition that has flooded this country over the past years, US citizens would not be near as well armed as they are now. I for one wouldn’t be.
Aside from defection/refusal to carry out orders on the part of national forces, State-based National Guard units would almost certainly come over to their States’ side (should it be a revolution of States against the federal government).
what a joke dont, dont turn me in to the game warden.
accuse them of a felony? like smoking crack makes them turn in their crack.
like nmt providig your medical records beore you run for president ever
stopped a despot and his koolaid drinkers.
bring it, there are 200 million guns, 90 million people without a job.
their new job is soldier, and half the cops would walk
Closer to 400-million w/billions of rounds and lots of reloading equipment and the necessaries.
Don’t forget the multiple millions of retired and not active military that do love what America really stands for ~!
Slim, while your comment is interesting, I suggest you review your grammar. Two times you wrote “there” when you clearly meant “their” (possessive), and once you wrote “there”* again when you’re intent was clearly “they’re” (they are), and some punctuation marks (commas, a period or two, etc.) are missing. (*”Not that it matters. [For] the few that do have herds of cattle, the feds could blow them up–they’re already counting them with satellites anyway). Your point is sold much more effectively when your writing is also correct.
Slim, Masta Obama has already shown us and the world that he already murdered US citizens and their family members “accused” of a crime by drones without “due process of law”. So, knowing that…how do you feel? Does it make you angry? And if he does it several times…why should he stop? Who will draw that line if and when it becomes necessary? You need to make a decision, either to stand up and secure your rights as a man and US citizen OR stand down and bend over to give everything up. Your choice, chose wisely grass hopper.
Slim, what are you smoking NO ONE in this Country will ever hand over their guns to anyone use less their dead. Their is only one reason that our government wants to take them and we all know why that would be too…rule our freedom and we all agree kill us then you can take the ones you kill, and we say good luck with that.
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin
During the revolution, the colonists had the advantage of knowing the terrain. This was also the case in Iraq and Afghanistan. As the author points out, the civilians and combatants all look the same so it was hard to tell who was the enemy. Somethings I would like to point out here is that if it ever came to it here in America, the military would not only have to fight against an armed populous, they would have take into account that there are military retired who would be joining the fight. These guys alone would be a force to reckon with since they are already well trained in the military tactics and strategies. Each time an insurgency won a battle they would be free to collect any weapons left behind.
Of the 90 million gun owners in this country, some would lay down their arms, but a lot would not. 3% or more would be a significant force, If it ever does come to that, there will definitely be American bloodshed, but once things got started the smell of victory, would fan the flames of those who wish to restore the Republic.
I’ve seen some articles about the possibility of foreign troops coming in to do the fighting either U.N. or China, or Russia. Again, these troops would lack the knowledge of the terrain, local customs, etc and would most likely easy for locals to spot.
I guess time will tell. MOLON LABE
YOU MAKE ME SICK! Don’t ever label yourself as an US Citizen again, let alone a member of the NRA. In the words of Patrick Henry, GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! Better to die one death in revolt, than scaulk through life as a beaten dog begging for scraps.
The reason there is a welfare system in the United States is to keep the masses pacified. Revolutions are ignited by empty bellies. Slim says he welcomes a boot on his neck. I wonder how long he would watching his loved ones dying of hunger and abuse at the hands of an unjust government?
S.H. Blannelbery was obviously impressed with Finger’s post. “Finger” made some excellent points in his well written statement.but he completely missed the boat on two major issues.
First of all, most Americans don’t buy firearms to hunt squirrels in the woods or elephants in Africa. They don’t buy them to just punch holes in paper targets or hunt for game. The main reason for the Second Amendment was to enable the people to have a means to maintain their independence from those who would abuse their inherent rights, which would include their own government.
“Finger” seems to think that some Americans buy guns to start a revolution. Revolutions start when the oppressed people are so miserable that they can’t bear the thought of continuing to live under grinding tyranny another day. Fingers wrote
“I and most everyone else in this country, have plans for the future which require stability and will never come to fruition in a war zone.” I wonder if fingers would consider slavery to be a condition of stability. Fingers obviously believes that a revolution, once started, continues on as being a “war zone” forever. The hostilities of the American Revolution lasted for five years from July 4th 1776 until the Battle of Yorktown in October of 1781. Revolutions are not started for their entertainment value, they come about because the people can no longer tolerate tyranny.
The comparison of the Iraqi fiasco to the American Revolution was a reach. The Iraq invasion was instigated by the United States. The justification for this action was questionable. Even if Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, it could not have employed them against the United States without suffering a 10,500 degree weather front across that country.
But the biggest error in Finger’s post was his regard of the Armed Forces of the United States. He simply lacks respect for the men and women that put their lives at risk in the defense of the Constitution and the American way. All armed forces personnel take a two part oath of allegiance. The first part is to support and defend the Constitution. The second part is to obey the lawful orders of the President and the subordinates that he designates in the chain of command.
If a President abuses the inherent rights of the people, the personnel in the armed forces are duty bound to honor their oath to support the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC. This is the reason that obama has been purging those in the officer corps that give any indication that they take their oaths to support the Constitution seriously.
obama also understands that a would-be tyrant cannot abuse the rights of an armed populace, That is the reason that he constantly seeks to regulate and control individually owned firearms. Crime control? What a laugh!
“Fingers” believes that we are a nation of laws and as such, he has faith in the future stability of America. Fingers is wrong.
We are now a nation of lawless men such as obama who regularly thumbs his nose at the Constitution, and John Boehner, who looks the other way so often that he has become obama’s enabler.
Something wicked this way comes and Fingers is oblivious to the approaching storm. Indeed, “Fingers” might not recognize the upheaval until his personnel “stability” is a distant memory.
I share your views Joe.
I think people have conflicting views of our government and military concerning their loyalty to this country.
It shows in these comments.
It’s because Obama’s plan is to make you feel American’s form of government is a failure, and socialism is the way to be.
He want’s us all to give up on The American way, mainly Freedom and Liberty.
It’s why we are having these comments, arguing different views of the military’s loyalty.
Please watch this video to understand what he’s doing to our Military Forces.
The argument S.H. BLANNELLBERRY started here will end once you view it and are enlightened.
S.H.BLANNELBERRY, you may want to subscribe to this guy for information and good videos to spread around to firearm enthusiasts.
PLEASE WATCH–> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1DS2wXSKF5k
I know this thread is cold, but Joe, your points are all reeeeeeally bad…
1. “Fingers obviously believes that a revolution, once started, continues on as being a “war zone” forever…”
At no point did Finger say, or even imply that revolutions continue on forever, once started. Not sure where you could have possibly drawn that conclusion from.
2. “The comparison of the Iraqi fiasco to the American Revolution was a reach.”
There was no “reach,” because a comparison between “THE” American Revolution and the Iraq war was never made. Ever. There was, however, a comparison made to a “would-be” conflict on American soil. And even then, he actually went out of his way to specify that there would be huge differences between the Iraq war and any hypothetical war in the US.
3. “But the biggest error in Finger’s post was his regard of the Armed Forces of the United States. He simply lacks respect for the men and women that put their lives at risk in the defense of the Constitution and the American way.”
This dude served in the armed forces. Did you miss the part where he stated that he served in Iraq? And based on what he wrote (which I don’t think you actually read) I’d say he has a profound respect for our constitution. What are you talking about??
4. ““Fingers” believes that we are a nation of laws and as such, he has faith in the future stability of America. Fingers is wrong.”
Again, you’re drawing a lot of conclusions based on assumptions about this dude that you’re just pulling out of your ass. He obviously wasn’t making any sweeping statements about the actual future stability of this country, he was just saying that stability is better than violence and chaos, which it is. That’s a fact. That was actually pretty clear in the writing. I’m not sure how you missed that.
5. “Something wicked this way comes and Fingers is oblivious to the approaching storm. Indeed, “Fingers” might not recognize the upheaval until his personnel “stability” is a distant memory.”
Something wicked this way comes??? Take it down a notch, Thoreau. Anyway, you completely misunderstood the piece in its entirety. It was just a piece talking about the idea that big guns don’t always win fights and it was supported by Finger’s own experience in a fight between a poorly armed insurgency and the modern US military. That’s it. All of your points suck.
Honestly, I don’t think you actually read the thing. I’m certain you just casually skimmed over it, assumed you knew what it was saying, and then came to some really bad conclusions based on your weak understanding of the message. It was very well written, and I read it a few times and shared it myself.
“The majority of citizens would comply to a new law that made it a felony to possess a firearm.”
Your comment directly contradicts recent examples, most notably in Connecticut where the compliance rate for “assault weapon” registration was less than 15%. Oh, and Bundy Ranch.
Slim you obviously are not American by birth. Your English syntax is wrong and doesn’t jive. So my advice is, don’t try to give advise on that which you have no clue about. Your cowardly response has nothing in common with most Americans. We tend to get underestimated because we are Christians and are Very tolerant, but push us too far and you see how fast righteous anger takes over and it’s call to battle time. If God be for us, who can be against us? Nobody!!!
The 2nd amedment and armed citizen militias are only a nuisance unless they are organized, have leadersip, strategy, tactics and clear objectives. Now how can that be brought to fruition with a government that listens to every phone converstaions, reads every text, scans every email, monitors all the social media networks, and has the ability to trump up charges, throw you in jail or simply have you killed?
What a sad view of American Men you have. I’m curious, is this view yours based on the friends you have or just lack of a spine. I don’t mean to be rude, maybe I’ve taken your comment out of text.
The fact that you hold an NRA membership, and are pro 2nd is irrelevant. The very core of the 2nd Amendment is to stand up for our rights as free people, and if needed fight to keep them, if our government ever tried to take those very freedom’s that I and so many others have and would lay down their lives to protect.
Your statement goes even further in its meaning, at the heart of what you’ve said why fight for America at all unless our government says so…..
It seems that you’ve conceded your freedom already, and would give it up for the asking.
I for one don’t believe that most think as you do at all, in fact the sons and daughters of our military fight for those freedom’s and those of their families, not for a government who would turn on those very people.
I believe , (God forbid if anything like this scenario ever played out) that the government would find itself alone, as my friends and family members who currently serve and are my neighbors, would not stand with a government who stands against their family and our way of life.