Once again we’re in a position to play armchair quarterback. And once again we have to remember the limitations that come along with playing that position, mainly, seeing footage of an incident is no substitution for actually being there and experiencing it.
What you’ll see in the video above is graphic. So WARNING, content may be inappropriate for some viewers!
Dallas police arrive at the home of Shirley Harrison on June 14, 2014. Once again, her son, Jason, is struggling with his mental illness.
Shirley explains to the officers, “He’s off the chain,” she tells them as the officer stand at the door. “Bipolar, schizo,” she adds, appearing exasperated.
Jason stands in the doorway holding a screwdriver. Noticing that he has a sharp implement in his hand the officers instruct Jason to let it go.
“Will you drop that for me?” Officer Andrew Hutchins, the officer wearing the camera says. His partner, Officer John Rogers echoes the instruction.
“Yeah, drop that for me,” Rogers says. Hutchins begins to raise his voice, repeating the instruction.
Jason fails to comply and appears to move toward the officer. Shots are fired. Harrison drops to the ground, his face against the garage door.
The officers repeat the command with Jason on the ground.
“Drop it! Drop it! Put it down.”
“Drop it, guy! ” the officer continues. “Put the damn thing down. Put the screwdriver down. Put the screwdriver down.”
Jason would not survive the shooting. As for the officers Rogers and Hutchins, their fate still hangs in the balance. Both were placed on administrative leave for five days. DPD Chief David Brown believes the shooting was justified but the District Attorney’s Office has not yet decided whether to turn the case over to a grand jury.
Meanwhile, Jason’s family has filed a lawsuit against the city. According to their attorney Geoff Henley, the family believes the officers were too quick to pull the trigger.
“I just don’t want to believe it’s acceptable in Dallas, Texas, that’s how we treat mentally ill people in this town,” Harrison’s brother David said in a press conference Monday.
Well, to ask the obvious question, do you believe the shooting was justified or do you believe the officers overreacted?
Again, we’re playing armchair quarterback. From my perspective, I’d like to believe there may have been a non-lethal or less-lethal means to disarm Jason. Perhaps by brute force or by a taser. But like most of these encounters, they happen so fast that it’s very difficult to second guess the officers’ reaction. It went from calm conversation, “Will you drop that for me,” to deadly shooting in a matter of about six seconds. That’s fast. Real fast.
Real life is messy. And complicated. I’m not sure on this one. I think I need some more time to think.
I guess the best thing to do would be to ask yourself, under the circumstances, how are you trained to respond against an armed man approaching you in what appears to be a sudden manner?
Where do you come out on this?
As a former full time municpal police officer and current corrections officer, it is knowones job to be injured by another, law enforcement personnel are trained to de-escalate when possible, this situation devolved in seconds and as viewed the officers were obviously uniformed, their had been previous invident where a family member had to draw down on decedent, the officers gave clear orders and thisr orders were ignored. The decedent rushed in the the officers direction without provication…. the officers demeanor arriving was not heightened, so there did not seem to be an intent on their being a confrontation, its easy to quarterback stuff when you have no experience dealing with or training for these tyoe of situations. So the question to ask is should the officer have let the decedent stab him and possibly kill him first? By the way people officers respond to dangerous situations like this multiple times a shift…
What happened to That Yellow Stun Gun?? They always reach for the one that kills. In this case and Many other cases, the Stun Gun stays holstered (Why)
I agree. I am wholeheartedly a supporter of the blue warriors and my right to carry and defend myself and my family. However, this is a tough incident to mull over. You wonder why not a draw the taser or night stick, etc. That bullet is permanent and lethal…and cannot be pulled bac once shot. I don’t know…in the end I suppose quick thinking and adrenaline ensued and they were still within their rights. But it does not look good.
Close quarters, either one could result in officer being injured, it happened so fast, and in this case, deadly force was being used towards the officer, this decedent wasnt just yelling and screaming from a safe distance etc… safe distance to shoot or taser someone with time for officer to evade strike, is 30 feet
That Ginger cop murdered that man and laughed about it twice as he sat in his patrol car.. I feel sorry for his partner that had to witness and comply with the good old boys. That Red haired officer was so stupid, ,he did not even realize his body cam angle, so for what he believed was just the voice recording, he kept saying… drop it guy! drop it guy! Drop what? as he continues saying drop it guy, his own camera shows that mans arms were under his body and he was bleeding out! He was dying and nobody cared! ,He had a fuxcking screw driver! Another thing that bothers me is his cell phone Graphic showing the Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp as Tonto…. Seriously??? We armed this man? The most telling of all and what scares me the most, is how a fellow officer hands over his phone and the entire screen is Ana Salazar with different numbers.in California. I am sickened by the lack of compassion shown by everyone there. You officers responded to a call knowing full well what to expect, So, Why did you not have at ready, the yellow tasers or the pepper spray you both were carrying? and why did you shoot him twice in the back as he was falling face down? Completely non harmful in any way to yourself or others? I pray to God I never have to take a human life, but if that happened and I had no other option, I would be heart broken… sickened… not laughing as if it were a game in Warcraft or a MOVIE!!!!!! You have no human qualities and are a blight to your fellow officers/co-workers and human beings!
Good point. And I really don’t think they were just trying to kill them…they genuinely may have been in fear and within their rights if course. However, the taser…what about that or the night stick…they all carry extended slap sticks to break windows, etc. Anyway, what a mess.
I think that the police should not have shot the man .why didn’t they shoot him in the legs. I think they should be charged for murder.
The craziest part is that if that were a Marine/Seal/Ranger/etc. in Afghanistan/Iraq, he would not have been permitted to shoot and such a killing would have surely seen him brought up on charges. Mind you that’s while being charged at by a radical Islamic terrorist! However in our own country we don’t even ask or expect our police to exercise the same degree of restraint with fellow American citizens. That is what scares me. In war you have to be shot at first by your enemy to justify the rules of engagement, but at home a screwdriver is enough to snatch a mentally ill person’s life without consequence. No good. No good at all. Police accept that their job is a dangerous job; that’s inherent when you take such employment. I also realize that as humans we are conditioned to put the self first; survival first and foremost. However if you don’t want to/or cannot follow the rules of engagement then you should not be a police officer. We also have to stop dressing and training our officers as if they’re going to war every time they punch in. We are conditioning them to respect life less and to feel more authoritative behind the badge (They have done many many studies on this). We went from neck ties in the 60s to full tactical garb in the modern day. When you take ex-military and put them back into surroundings (gun on hip, tactical clothes, bullet proof vest, high adrenaline) that stimulate their conditioned responses from the past, they will resort back to such behavior. It’s nature. Pavlovian. We have to change the system from top to bottom to re-establish once again that police are here to SERVE THE PEOPLE.
1. He was armed
2. He failed to obey the officer, who already knew he was potentially dangerous, after the initial call by the female in the home to drop the weapon. It was not a screwdriver at this point but a weapon.
3. He appeared to make a very sudden move toward his front or to his left.
4. He is shot and falls.
What cannot be seen is the expression on his face and the look he might have had and his hand and arm in their quick movement just before the shots are fired.
In this case statements have to be taken from all at the scene, and unless there is something of great significance, it is a justified shooting in self defense of the officer.
That being stated, this is a sad ending to a citizen asking for help to institutionalize a loved one who was being belligerent at home for whatever reason, from a mental break or a refusal to take medications or illegal drugs/alcohol.
In a very imperfect world in which the police are being asked to be part social worker and part mental health expert along with keeping the subhumans at bay, the issue is money. Most places cannot afford a specially trained group, whose purpose is to “arrest” or “hold against their will” the mentally ill, by web shooters or Tasers or other bulky “non-lethal” devices. But, I believe it is unreasonable to expect anyone in such close proximity when trying to control a person with a weapon to not try to defend themselves by the quickest and fastest way to do the job. I will end with this: 60 years ago, the policeman might have pulled his gun if he were the same size or smaller than the ill man, and, when the man moved forward the policeman would have hit the guy with the weapon across his head and not fired so quickly, or used a nightstick or billy. If the policeman had been larger, he would have used his nightstick or blackjack or just overpowered the ill man with his hands. So, the best way that this could have taken place is that a drawn nightstick should have been at the ready, before the pistol came out.
Thank you for saying the same thing i said, these people on here have unrealistic thoughts of how the world actually works. I have seen many new officers and civilians who have the opportunity to work or ride along with officers, do a complete reversal of these ill-informed calls for charges and arrests of officers…by the way that laugh people heard was not of joy, but if disbelief that he had to use deadly force, and he’s trying yo mentally stabilize himself, im speaking from experience!
Thinking maybe we should also train our police to use hand to hand combat. What ever happened to the old night stick?
These officers were incredibly stupid and obviously had no training in dealing with people with special needs. They had warning in the 911 call, if experienced they should know to back off while the subject is agitated and let them wind down. The very last thing you do is begin yelling and screaming at the person and pointing their weapons. What are they going to shoot next, the cat that runs by, a squirrel in the tree? The guy’s mother? Not even a taser? Morons.
Why can’t these cops shoot to maim and not to kill ? Shoot the guy in the legs ! Don’t tell me it happened so fast.
Aren’t officers trained marksmen ? From what I saw , they had a choice. They blew it. No wonder there is so much racism thrown about these days. No , I am white , if you are wondering. And I do own guns and WILL shoot you if
you break into my house , and shoot to kill. But , I think it time to say enough is enough. Get the guy some help mentally , lock him up if need be , but don’t just kill him when you already hold the upper hand. Rogue cops. Rambo wanna be , every one of them.
I agree 100%. 2 guns for a screwdriver? C’mon.
For the edification of those posters that don’t live in the real world-
1) Tasers should not be applied at 5 feet, and when moving backwards- They do not always work for a variety of reasons- When less-lethal options, including baton, pepper spray, or Taser are appropriately deployed, they require a cover officer with a lethal weapon in hand. 2) The subject is NOT required to stab an officer in the torso through his vest- which by the way can be a painful debilitating or even lethal wound, and which potentially surrenders an officer’s firearm to the subject 3) In that ten foot box mentioned, two on one? Against a determined person, one or both officers WILL be stabbed, and they don’t get to pick where-. and 4) As mentioned, mentally disturbed people have various characteristics-VERY relevant ones are: they are often not compliant; by definition, they are not in a rational state of mind, and the ever-popular notion of “de-escalation” is WAY more likely to fail; and they often do not feel pain or process injury the same as would a “normal” person-
I have seen Tasers fail more than once; I have seen a deranged subject lick his lips when pepper sprayed- others showed no effect at all; and I have seen wooden batons applied and break with no effect, and metal batons wielded with ‘vigor’ bounce off. I have also seen relatively slight individuals on crack, meth or PCP, require 4 or more fit, competent, larger and highly motivated officers to subdue and restrain them- usually without injury to the subject- but not always… but almost always WITH injury to the officers.
I have my own opinion of the shooting. Let the appropriate authorities make the determination. BUT for those posters with some fantasy idea of what the threat was and what should have been done- lay off. You haven’t walked the walk. Oh and FYI for at least one deluded poster- your constitutional rights are accompanied by those of the officers’ ‘constitutional’ rights to go home without a screwdriver in an eye socket
You have some good points, but placing must in the situation…. I would not have even considered shooting someone with a screwdriver in their hand (especially in their own home or on their own property) unless I was sure they intended me harm. I don’t think these officers even waited to see the guy’s intentions.
THAAAAANNNKKK YOU!!!! MY GOD THESE PEOPLE ARE CRAZY!!!
This was a classic situation of under-trained pumped up cops going for the easy shoot. C’mon guys, what the fuck? Doesn’t ANY police department spend ANY money training their personnel hand-to-hand street techniques? For Christ’s sake people, I’m 5’11”, 180 lbs, and I could have had the screwdriver out and perp on the ground in 2.3 seconds. For the love of Pete, I saw a Taser in somebody’s hand. This was Taser Heaven. This is what Tasers were MADE for, that is, if everybody there is under-trained in hand-to-hand disarm/takedown techniques. All you guys calling “Good Shoot” ought to be ashamed. Ever heard of ducks in a barrel? For God’s sake, somebody get some damned training!!!
I watched the video three consecutive times and have to say the officers were justified. Now we didn’t get to see the position of the screwdriver but you can see that due to the close proximity of the officers to the subject, any other reaction by the officers most likely would have resulted in a felonious assault or death on one or both officers. The officers in my opinion were only able to deploy the force necessary to respond to the threat approximately 3 to 5 feet in front of them. Remember a screwdriver can kill you and the mothers utterance of her description of her son didn’t mean the officers knew the subject had mental issues. Just because she said her son had issues didn’t mean he did to the officers on scene. Oh and before those of you say I don’t know what I am talking about, spent many years in law enforcement and I do evaluate the evidence. I wasn’t there but I call it the way I see it, and those of you that think the situation warranted other use of force need to go to classes and subject yourselves to a ride along and see what officers see.
EXACTLY!!!
Whether he was threatening with it at the time or not, he failed to comply with multiple requests and commands to drop the screwdriver. These officers were well inside the minimum safe distance of 21 feet and were determined to go home at the end of their shift. Family called and then have the nerve to look surprised when it goes badly? What were the officers supposed to do, give him a hug and a lollipop? Screw that; too bad he’s dead, but I prefer the guys that survived over an EDP every day of the week and twice on Sunday. When the cops show up at the door, and are met by a guy with a deadly weapon in his hands, it’s too late for tactics that a mental health professional might be able to employ in a calmer situation.
Some people just shouldn’t be police officers. Clearly this guy shouldn’t be one.
What happened to the good old days when a cop would beat the day lights out of you with a night stick ?
Their in jail
Have not read all the previous comments so this is as if I am the only one responding. From what we can tell, the boy had a screwdriver and he moved forward with it toward the officer after being told to put it down. That’s all we could see before shots were fired. I think the police used bad judgement using lethal force. They should have stunned the victim; however, he had to be subdued, at least in the estimation of the main cop who shot him. The cop knew he screwed up. More than once he said “Oh shit” in an anxious tone. I think he should be reprimanded and subjected to additional training and probably some time off without pay so he would have time and motivation to seriously consider how he should do his job. Obviously he needs some psychological evaluation. This is so serious. When a life is extinguished, we should all not armchair but try to understand what we would do based on the information we have.
When I see stuff like this my first reaction is, “couldn’t they have used a less than lethal means?” However, I know that it is very easy to second guess a cop when you are sitting in your recliner. I also remind myself of how not having any training in this type of situation makes me a very poor critic.
As ex law enforcement…….quick movement towards officers or woman with a deadly object! Thats a show of possible aggression with a lethal weapon which justifies deadly force. In the video you can here the woman say “schizophrenic” as well. I say tragic, but justified!
Thank God you are EX law enforcement.
Amen to that.
Well you are correct, however, people like myself will continue to wonder why not a taser…as a 1st…then…
If you pause the video between 1:07 to 1:09 (the counter kept changing on me so just mess with it) you will see a frame where the suspects right shoulder down to about his knee is visible. His arm can not be seen. So unless the guy removed his arm it is raised to at least just above shoulder level. If you tap the pause button a few times you will catch a frame where his right hand comes down with the screwdriver appearing to be gripped with the handle towards his thumb and blade towards his pinky (sorry didn’t want to say psycho grip.) This frame is right before and as he falls. Most of you I am sure did not watch the whole video but the medics (use that term loosely here) start talking about how this guy ‘s own brother had to pull a gun on him because he had a knife and was after his mother. So I think you can guess where I stand but make your own call.
Just one last thought. All you keyboard warriors go do a ride along in a good size department with an inner-city and you will be amazed how many lives we save by not shooting in situation where we could/should. Going through these types of investigations is like being raped by a bull in public. You have no idea if you will get a far shake or get a liberal dogooder who is racist against blue. You face the possibility of prison just like everyone else. And this goes on for the better part of a year or longer while you try to put on a happy face for your kids and wife. So if you think Officers go out looking to kill people for fun there is just no educating you.
AMEN BROTHER, IVE EXPERIENCED EXAXTLY WHAT YOU SAID!!!
If a person with a screwdriver made a move like the one the suspect/victim made I would defend myself with extreme prejudice. But I’m not the law. And Part of me does feel as though it was justified because the suspect did move towards one officer but what the officers could have done is back up as soon as he had a screwdriver in his hands. Wtf?! These cops had plenty of time to create distance instead of squaring off with a mentally ill person.
If this were a millitary operation I believe the COP would be facing criminal charges … But since it is a police issue… They will say justifiable use of deadly force … I really thought the COP … Would shoot him in the back … To the COP you will face the true GOD in the end … And if you heart was pure you will be forgiven … If not … I am sure GOD … Take care of that … I really don’t care about the person you shot … Only that justice is served … Question … Can you sleep at night … Haha- a screwdriver … Lmao
A screw driver can be very lethal. Sad it ended this way but once he lunges with the weapon he forced the Police Officers response
Your’re simplistic in so many ways… gullibility topping the list.
He was Executed by the Dallas division of the Secret Cleansing squad that every Major city in America has.
That man was penciled in as dead before they even got there. 87.8 percent of the cleansing that has been going on for years, is never seen. The issue for the last few years is cell phone cameras that capture some of the executions and that is why the officers cell phones are exchanged as happened in this video. Understand? I assume not. There has to be a investigation when a life is taken so they will look up all calls to or from the officer involved. Time stamps, Location, Etc..I,ll give just one of the many numbers listed for Ana Salazar on the phone given to the executioner. Why Ana has 5 different phone numbers and all from Bakersfield CA, I do not know ,(661) 748-0740 call it and see what you get. I promise you, you will get NOTHING from any number shown in his list, because if the incoming number is not on the receivers end, they will not answer.. And all those numbers were killed once this video was released. If you live in a Major City and you are a thug or what is determined to be useless or less than blue collar in Society, you have a wanted poster and you will be executed.. You should vote for Hillary…She signed off on it….The guy in this video wasn’t even smart enough to understand he was in danger. Had he been a little smarter, he would have driven to a park and shot himself TWICE with a antique untraceable gun like the Brilliant Vince Foster did! Of course this guy did not warrant a ghost temp that after his death, stole all his files from the most secure site in the world and simply disappeared.
What……?
The camera didn’t show all the action. It did not appear to me that the victim made any threatening action, but he did move forward, He did appear to be holding a screwdriver in a manner not consistent with attack. That can change very quickly. There are many things the officers could have done better. Situational awareness. They knew they were responding to a call with someone with diminished capacity. They should have given him more space. My feeling is that the officers acted prematurely. Domestic violence and unruly persons are always a very scary call.
It’s a shame this guy was killed and I thought at first there “might” have been other options but as the video progresses you can clearly hear them talking about the number of times police had been called to this guys home. The last time a knife etc., etc. and “just a matter of time”.
The blame, in my opinion, is the Mother and authorities for not seeking help before a fatal shooting. After the guy is laying face down, in his own blood, is not the time to question whether or not the shooting was justified after he AGAIN made threats with a screwdriver.
HOLY CRAP! Another S.H.BLANNELBERRY fight starting special !
There’s way too many people out here to comment to.
Nice to hear from the few respectful like minded people out there chiming in.
I’ll try to sum it up for the rest.
You better start respecting our great police force.
Obama and his buddies are trying to make you think our cops are incompetent.
Part of that is because his buddies, influenced by Eric Holder, actually hire some people that aren’t qualified.
He want’s ‘Civil Unrest’ so that he can call in the U.N. to police us in his “New World Order”.
These Blue Hats will not be Americans
They will not let you have firearms, and they certainly will not hesitate to eliminate you.
All of you disrespectful cop haters will literally beg for the American police force you once had.
Mommy and Daddy, start bringing up your kids. They wont last long if you let social media do it for you.
‘Comply or Die’, is simple enough to remember. Or maybe ‘Don’t fight Cops’ might work for you, take your pick.
If you don’t like cops, become one, and show us all your ninja skills. We need you to keep criminals alive.
Keep in mind, tools kill 5 times more people in the USA than firearms do. Good Luck!
You people better wise up before it’s too late.
Don’t forget to thank S.H BLANNELBERRY for this argumentative video.
With all due respect, friend, I’m an American citizen. I don’t “Comply or Die” for anyone, uniform or not. The fact that you would promote this type of mindset, coupled with your belief that we would “beg for the American police force” in a SHTF situation , makes me believe you would be far more comfortable in a repressive regime than part of a society made up of free citizens with inalienable natural rights.
Hi Damon,
You may have misunderstood me.
A SHTF situation is too late for complying.
I speak of before then.
I’m sure neither one of us would answer to the police, at our door, with a tool in our hands.
And not only refuse to comply with four demands to drop it, but move forward.
You know those cops hated to do that, and are bothered by it.
That’s what I’m talking about.
And I’m a Constitutional law kind of guy when it comes to living in society.
Sorry I wasn’t clear to you, but still good to hear you chime in.
Looks like the Officers were correct in instructing the suspect to drop the weapon and did so in a non-threatening method. The subject did however look like he slashed at the officer of jabbed towards them when they opened fire. They also had their backs to a vehicle so they were for all intent trapped. The Officers handled themselves in a very professional manner and went exactly by the book. These Officers also were rather upset that they had to shoot but maintained their professionalism throughout the entire incident. Looks like a justified shooting.
As much as I hate to say this, in this case, I think this level of force was justified. However, that said, US police forces are utterly and woefully incapable of handling mental health calls. I think at this stage mental health calls should require a partnership ride-alongs with a mental health professional on these calls. They could diffuse things if given a chance especially given this persons multiple trips due to his inability to take his meds, but at least a mental health pro, would have known that, seen it, and dealt with it, without lethal force. I hope.
Really these guys dont even need to be cops. Cops now a days have NO self deffense abilities. I dont know if its lack of training or lack of confidence in there ability or if there hiring softies?
Were the cops afraid that he was going to screw them with the crewdriver?
From what I could see, the officers could have used other options to un-arm this guy rather than shoot him. If a civilian would have shot a guy holding a screw driver (not even a large screw driver) what do you think would be the outcome?
While some people are just acting childish (Mahatma Muhjesbude, this guy has no expirience, just an opinionated internet troll) on this post i have to agree. I have been attacked with a knife more than once, and i have been assulted with a variety of impact weapons, and all while under the age of 21. I didnt have a firearm to defend myself or others with but I can tell you that with enough training and physical fitness you can handle yourself just fine against someone like this. I am 6ft 220 lbs and fought multiple assailants and been fine. While most of these police shootings i see are justified this one was not. Take part in some martial arts or just more exhaustive hand to hand training and, lets be real, dont be araid to take a hit or get a cut. I am much happier to have gotten hit in the face and been able to disarm someone then to just gun them down. I have also been cut on my extremities and then been able to counter fast and hard enough to end a situation. HOWEVER I was not there and I am not a police officer so I’m 50/50 on this one. I wouldnt have shot, but ive spent 12 years training in hand to hand soft and hard combat.
JZ and to the rest of you arm chair cops, judges, and juror’s. JZ since you have been training yourself to get punched or stabbed you have no idea the training that an officer has to face everyday of their lives. It’s real life and in this situation there is no amount of training that can prepare you for this kind of threat. Yes they where threatened and a simple screw driver is extremely dangerous.
Mahatma your just a troll and probably a Libertird.
To you men and woman who swore to uphold the law I salute you. I’m just a volunteer officer in the county I live in so I don’t have to put it on the line everyday like you folks. I have had my share of situations when I am on duty but not as bad as this one. Even as a sworn officer it’s still tough to decide right or wrong because I wasn’t in there shoes.
Be safe and take care,
Tj
I took an “offensive” knife class one time and found out just how dangerous someone with a sharp pointy object can be whether a knife or ice pick or screwdriver. During part of the class, the instructor showed real videos of what bad guys can do with sharp pointy objects, even against armed LE. Before I took that class and understood the threat I would have quickly called unjustified use of force in this case. IMPORTANT NOTE: cops receive this sort of training, i.e. the potential danger of a bad guy with a sharp pointy object.
Regardless, it seems some what basic: 1) when a cop tells you to drop a sharp pointy object, do it! 2) after a cop tells you to drop said sharp pointy object, the LAST F***ING THING YOU SHOULD DO IS MOVE TOWARD the cop!! This isn’t rocket science!
The groups of people that statistically are much more likely to be involved in these types of crimes then any other groups of people (statistics aren’t racist), take note: STOP DOING STUPID SHIT and you know what?! You will probably stop getting shot by the police.
We’ve all seen it but it appears we must be reminded again. Chris Rock’s “How not to get your ass beat by the police”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR465HoCWFQ
OMG! JK!
That video was so dam funny, I’m crying.
There are some people here commenting that really need to watch it and let it sink in.
Thanks for the laugh.
Unjustified. The main didn’t move aggressively and the officers had plenty of room to move back to assess the situation and as far as the mother goes she walked away as soon as she opened the door and as the officers approached the the man so she wasn’t in any danger. There is something wrong with those officers yelling to the man to drop the weapon when he’s either dead or dying either way the man couldn’t do anything at that point. as usual it’s a black man that’s at the other end of the gun THIS REALLY NEEDS TO STOP. I’ve seen videos of officers talking/harassing people and the individual gives the officers a run down on what rights they have etc. and they eventually back down however black men don’t stand a chance they can’t say anything, move in any sort of way etc.
These Officers did not have to kill this man. They were notified this man was mentally ill. The Police Officers should have backed off as there were several cars in the drive way to put distance between them and the Subject. The Officers did not even try to help him as he lay there bleeding out. The Officers were still afraid of the screwdriver with him lying there dying.
This needs to go to the Grand Jury. As a Police Officer I was trained to use deadly force as a last resort.
These officers barely had anytime to react. Both officers were in a confined area, One officer had a vehicle and the mother at his back. He didn’t have anywhere to go. It was just all of the sudden, the suspect came at them (or at his mother who he had threatened before) in what appeared to be a threatening manner. The officers have to decide to I take the chance and try to wrestle with this person. There are two choices go hand to hand or go to gun. Everything else takes too much time to deploy given this circumstance. Mentally ill suspects can be as strong as and as dangerous as PCP users. While it is a tragedy that life was lost, the officers didn’t have much in the way of decisions. Risk your own life, a screwdriver to the head can end your life in a split second or puncture a blood vessel that is almost impossible to stop bleeding. Good Shoot!
Really, Dean? What was the rush? What if, what if, is a lame rationalization for deadly force. Cowardice or pure stupidity on the part of these two well armed public servants is inexcusable. If these two “men” and I use the term loosely, couldn’t tackle one man together, then they are in the wrong line of work. I don’t know what you see in that video, but the victim didn’t appear to be a hulking body builder capable of beating the crap out of the two of them at once to me! So where was the real threat in this scenario? These cops looked a lot more threatening than that sad man with a common screwdriver in his hand. What would happen is these two morons were ever called to a garage because it had been broken into? Can you imagine the carnage?
As the father of an autistic son and having a conceal carry I probably look at this different . People have asked if cops need to be called when my son was having a meltdown. No they were not ! Can understand how this happened. Police need more training. 1 in every 44 kids are autistic not to mention all other illnesses .
The police do not need more training. People need to stop calling the police to control their out of control, mentally disturbed offspring. If an individual is challenged or disturbed they need to be placed in a well controlled setting with professionals who can reliably oversee them and make them take their medications. This should be handled by mental health professionals and not police. When you call the police the assumption always is that the individual is acting in a manner that makes them a danger to them selves and others, hence the type of response evidenced here. I sometimes question why society lets such individuals out loose on the streets in the first place instead of permanently removing them from society in a manner such that they will no longer pose a potential risk. .
“Good Shoot” as someone said above. If by that you meant they hit their target, you’re right. Otherwise that was straight up MURDER…
It’s a damn shame these police officers are only armed with firearms while the general public is roaming the streets armed with screwdrivers and butter knives. We have to give the police a fighting chance against those odds especially when there are only two officers on scene with a raving wild man that is so well armed. There was an extreme possibility the madman may have been able to get a full swing in against the two of them.
Let me repeat myself: It appears we are training our Police to Shoot to quick and to Shoot To Many Rounds. Why? I am not blaming the officers, but I would like to see the training methods reviewed and revised. And, no I would not want the trainers as my backup.
Officers shoot until the threat stops. Period. Through my training I know I can get 4 aimed shots off per second and good hits on center of mass at 30 feet. I also know threat may not stop instantly and in many cases under the stress and dynamics of the I may miss (moving target, shooting while moving, stress induced hand tremors, loss of fine motor/trigger control, etc.) with a number of rounds. This is not a square range and even competition under a timer can not properly simulate the conditions of a lethal encounter. Shoot – Don’t shoot decision has to be made very quickly as you get further and further behind the OODA loop if you don’t, usually with very nasty results. I can see a full mag dump done easily under such conditions, these officers in the video exercised very good fire discipline by stopping shooting as the target went down. They also covered the target as downed subjects have a habit of recovering when prone due to changes in body position and blood pressure dynamics helping the brain get more O2. Just because the subject is down, do not assume he/she is permanently out of the fight. Unless you are willing to do the job yourself, do not second guess the officers involved, their response or training.
I did not have the time to read all the comments yet, but I will. Being 62 I have watched a lot of progress or lack of it over the years. My main concern today is Training and Attitude. It appears we have a lot of military style training in our police force and not enough good old common sense. They had a lot of room to retreat and a lot of cover to move around, period. Of greater concern is the number of shots being fired. What ever happened to the double tap. It seems our police are being trained to shoot way to soon and to shoot way to many rounds. Yes they are under great stress, but what I see is the need to turn to training with a view of the last thing you want to use is deadly force. As someone mentioned above, if I as a 40 year card carrying gun carrier had protected myself in this manner I believe a few years of my life would be used up waiting on the what charges will stick. LET US TAKE A LOOK AT WHY WE ARE FIRING SO SOON AND WHAT WE ARE FIRING SO MANY ROUNDS. At least this time they did not shoot more then around 2 or 3 rounds each, but then he fell over so they stopped shooting. Help Us All. .
When did we start paying Police to retreat? You shoot to stop the persons actions. Till he stops you fire
Charles L Bloss Jr,
I second that comment.
A lot has changed an recent years in regard to the manner in which police react in situations as this. Cops in the past used more restraint when it comes to defending themselves. A well trained cop could bring this man down with a baton. It seems like today police are trigger happy. I personally would feel better knowing I could avoid personal injury without having to kill everyone who was a threat to me. And the fact that the cop continued to yell “drop the screwdriver” when it was obvious the man was either dead or dying. I’m surprised they didn’t cuff the dying man and beat his mama for all of the crying.
They were trying to work his arms around to cuff him when he quit breathing.
That was clearly a homicide. He would of used a stun gun or spray on a white family.
I guess we need a ten day waiting period on some new items
Just watch and hope he dies Copper. If some one is down like that. You think you might want give a little help. But you are Cops(the enemy).
That s one way of getting rid of your restarted son. Call the Cops, give him a screwdriver, answer the door, let the pork shoot, sue the City. Live happily ever after$$$.
Having been trained in PA law enforcement including lethal weapons , in this old guys opinion . IT IS NOT A LEGAL SHOOT …
In my opinion there is not an immediate threat of life the officer could have got out of the perpetrators way . Than if the perp continued after the officer a shoot would be justified ……………
I grew up in Dallas. The Dallas police were better trained, and had more education requirements than most departments in the area. For instance when I was there they required a college degree, or must be working to complete one. That said, I watched the part of the tape prior to and including the shooting, 10x. The suspect came to the door knowing the police were there with a weapon. He had apparently been scaring his Mother to the point that she called police. It appears to me, though it happens really fast, that the suspect lunged at officers with the screwdriver. I have been a deputy sheriff for 30 years, in the second most populous county of KS. We were trained in the 21′ Tueller distance drill of a suspect with a knife. In no case was any deputy able to react and get his firearm out and shoot a person with a knife lunging at him from 21′. There were about 15 deputies in the class. The police officer in this situation must be very fast, or have had his firearm in his hand. Having been trained in less than lethal weapons such as 12 ga. bean bag rounds, pepper spray, and a stun gun, I have seen all of these fail and cause a deputy injury. I would not try, or rely on, any non-lethal weapon when that close to a suspect holding a deadly weapon. I think the Dallas Police officers had no choice but to stop deadly force with deadly force.
Were the cops afraid that he was going to screw them with the screwdriver?
I say that they did have a choice. All the gun web sites and blogs that I read continually talk about situational awareness. How is it that two trained officer’s of the law allow someone to get that close to them?
I cannot believe that an officer wants to shoot a suspect and take a life. Maybe they were quick to use a gun but then maybe the situation deserved it. A screwdriver will pierce a Kevlar vest. I agree with others though, if you have a mentally disabled child do not call the police if they have a weapon. This situation will only go from bad to worse.
What people are writing here is in may ways more disturbing than the video that shows the killing and later actions of everyone involved.
1) Mentally ill does not mean dangerous. Many departments treat the mentally ill badly and it is only until some bad event, like this one, that creates financial hardship and exceptionally bad press on the agency that did the deed does it ever get addressed. Shootings on the street or suicides in jail come back to haunt entities that refuse to train their staff. And training staff doesn’t mean you make them aware they need “good” shoots in order to use any force that could go deadly. Regardless of what many spout off here, the rules that govern police lethal force should also apply to everyone else that is not a member of law enforcement. Social and political pressure would likely make law enforcement tone down interactions if the same scrutiny was placed on police and non police interactions regarding force.
2) These officers had a lot of options they didn’t use. Not immediately complying with a “command” alone is not reason to use deadly force. What reasonable person believes that you need to expect being killed if you have some sort of police interaction that results in some sort of failure on your part to “comply”?
3) What person believes that a face down, multiply shot individual has the capacity to “comply” or facilitate whatever commands are being directed to them? What kind of law enforcement officer is so scared of their safety that they are afraid to get the offending instrument of impending doom (regular screwdriver) that is clearly visible away from the bleeding out victim? Can’t come from behind and remove it? Can’t render aid? Does the fact that officers shoot someone mean that they also watch them bleed out?
4) This video clearly shows it’s all about the officer, not the one shot. As the one lies bleeding the officer renders no aid and is more concerned about who he can talk to. If a regular person acted like this the prosecutor would have a field day. Seriously folks, what’s good for one set of citizens has to be good for all.
Those of us that believe in our Second Amendment rights need to fully understand that all rights are important and that due process is paramount. Law enforcement killings of anyone bypass due process most times as no judge or jury ever is involved. Maybe that needs to change. What’s good for us is good for them too. Transparency is a wonderful thing.
I expect all manner of vitriolic nonsense in response to this post, but we all need to recognize that all part of the Constitution are important and that seems to be lost on many here.
Yeah like to self defense clause, You talk like an idiot when you say the cops had other options, the options lay with the mentally ill aggressor the officer only reacted to the threat. If there had been more room to see and evaluate and if the aggressor had not lunged and if a frog had wings they would not bump their ass when they jumped. Oh and by the way a bulletproof vest will not stop a pointed or sharp weapon. I am sorry for the mentally ill aggressor but HE made the call. There was not time for DUE PROCESS.
I guess that the officer’s of DPD are idiot’s as well because they just asked for option’s other than deadly force. Due process will happen when these officer’s have this shooting go through the process. Sadly, there might not be any justice. How quickly did they get on the phone to that union rep and how quick were other officer’s to tell them to keep there mouths shut.
The police have been trained to de-escalate situations, correct? Those of you saying this shooting is justified are ignoring the responsibility the police have. Their job is not to show up and kill, they are there to diffuse the situation, obviously these officers are not well trained, or they have the mindset to shoot first, ask later. Either of these possibilities suck, but what is worse is that others are so willing to give the power of the judge, jury and executioner to the police.
It was a good shoot. Say what you will about it, but at the end of the day all of us have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. All of us commenting on this article and video (including me) have the benefit of watching and rewatching this video and picking out potential flaws that were committed by all parties involved from the comfort of a computer. Some will say we cops “should have done this” or “cops didn’t need to do that.” At the end of the day, these situations rapidly unfold and split second decisions are made usually without all of the facts known at the time. Who can honestly say how they will react until they are placed into the mists of a rapidly unfolding situation? I know I can’t say with 100% certainty how I would react and if you’re being honest with yourself, you won’t know either. Are there bad shoots that happen? Yes, but this was not one. To all that want to criticize and state how they could do this or that better, please put your money where your mouth is and join the ranks of law enforcement. Departments could always use more help.
I WOULDN’T WANT TO BE A POLICE OFFICER TODAY. DAMNED IF YOU DO DAMNED OF YOU DON’T.
Momma is so upset she is sueing, but after a number of calls to the house for threatening behavior she thinks its a great idea to let her beloved son come to the door with a screwdriver? So if i am the police i have been to the house before he not putting down the weapon, the mom is actually in danger. She moves he lunges , if he was easy to handle the mom would have done it, so it’s justified imo
http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/woman-stabbed-by-stranger-as-she-worked-out-at-irving-fitness-center.html/
It seems no matter what he had in his hand he would have met the same fate. Obviously the fact that they knew he was mentally ill had a part in it. If cops are able to say to you drop what you have in your hands and shoot you a couple seconds before you even have a chance to let it sink in what they’re saying and react it’s getting pretty bad. I personally don’t call the cops for anything as it seems they tend to make any situation worse than it is and I don’t like having somebody walking around with their hands on their gun ready to pull it out for the most pettiest reason. Seems common sense is getting pretty hard to find nowadays.
Good shoot.
I believe it is a justified shooting. Police Officer’s are trained to shoot to live scenarios. I read multiple post about non-lethal use rather than lethal force. Let’s start with the Tazer. The Tazer although a useful tool is not 100%. The barbs can not penetrate through certain types of clothing or they can just become disconnected. Also sometes the Tazer cartridges misfire or do not fire at all. Furthermore, certain people that get Tazed still have some functions and are still able to grab a gun or in this case swing a screwdriver. Let’s talk about Pepper spray or brute force next. Pepper spray is not 100% either. It works well on some people and doesn’t on others. The use of brut force on an armed man, mentally ill or not is just plain ludicrous. If the Officer’s would have tried to use brut force than its most probable that one of them may have been seriously injured or killed. Cops always get Monday morning quarterbacked. Things can go from calm to really bad in a blink of an eye. There usually is not enough time to think things through. An Officer’s goal is not to come to work and use lethal force against anyone. However, whether a subject is under the influence of drugs or has a mental condition or not, when your life is threatened you have the right and duty to your family to protect yourself!!
You’re comment is so stupid JP, that i’m getting more and more convinced every time i hear someone like you say such things that it must be true what the National Consortium of Psychiatry claims that society is approaching a situation where one out of every three persons in the country.will be potentially ‘suffering’ from some sort of psychological or emotional imbalance due to medications or other conditions.
So obviously you, yourself, are either one of these poor unfortunate people, or you are simply so ignorant that you should simply STFU before commenting on something of which you have a complete and pitiful absence of any knowledge. Either way, you’d be easy for the cops to ‘justify’ after they kill you.
If ‘Brute Force’ wasn’t a specific part of police tactical applications training to attain the submission of a subject in a direct face to face encounter, THEN THEY WOULDN’T BE TEACHING IT TO COPS AND ISSUING BATONS, AND SPRAY, AND TAZERS AND HANDCUFFS! Now would they? They’d just mandate a direct leap to deadly force and the carrying of two sidearms so as to facilitate summary execution any time they ‘felt’ like it?
But the police unions wouldn’t advise that because sooner or later there wouldn’t be many citizens left and therefore no need for more cops and the unions would lose money. The ‘risk’ part of the ‘Job’ goes with the occupational description. Police work is Definitely a physical job out on the Street. Just because a cop can’t handle the situation does not mean they immediately resort to lethal force. They have the discretionary prudence to de-escalate and back off.
What i’m about to describe is not ‘second-guessing’ That’s because i don’t ‘guess’ in situations like these. which is the mistake these officers made. But i think it’s necessary to explain so that dummies like you don’t proliferate the dangerous ignorance that leads to incidents like this.
As soon as we got there, when the guy appeared at the door with the screwdriver, and if he immediately didn’t drip the screwdriver AFTER the first request, I would have backed up to a safer distance and discreetly got the Tazer ready to instantly deploy if necessary. I would have given my partner the ‘nod’ to get his baton and pepper spray out, but not in a menacing manner. Then i would have changed the conversation topic from ‘orders’ to questions to re-direct the tension of the situation.
At that point if he was still standing there flipping the screwdriver–which wasn’t ‘threatening’ to me but more of a nervous indication of stress. My partner carried a maglite for a baton and would already have it up and shining at his face from a side flanking distance but in a position to immediately close the gap and bring it down hard if the subject moved quickly at any of us. (today i’d have one of those high intensity light batons with a stun gun tip.)
If the didn’t get froggy enough to necessitate a pop with the tazer and a whack with the baton, I’d talk to him first in a calm and placating voice, to see how ‘out of it’ he really was. All the time, of course, being alert in mode Red ready to instantly react.
To me it looked like the cops escalated the stress intensity of the incident which just caused him to attempt to physically escape the situation by trying to sidestep around the officers and follow his mother. Which the officers somehow interpreted as an assault on them so they simply opened fire and killed him. I’ve seen this behavioral mistake in several shootings like this. And it’s the cops own fault. You simply cannot legally justify lethal force for non-compliance of a police order when there is no forcible felony in progress.
Disobeying a police order, contrary to what so many idiots think here, is NOT a Forcible Felony. It certainly does NOT warrant an immediate death sentence by firing squad?!
If two well trained and seasoned police officers can’t handle one mentally ill person that was not in an extreme adrenalin pump exhibition of current violent destruction without executing him with their firearms, then they shouldn’t be on the job.
Until you get your head screwed back on correctly, JP, and understand that the whole idea of police ‘training’ is that the officer has the advantage when using physical force by his tactical equipment and training against an unarmed person, especially if there are more than one on the scene, I hope you, or any of your friends or family are never in a similar situation with similar incompetent cops..
Great post Mahatma Muhjesbude. I remember when billy clubs were the first line of defense with big city police officers. The “shoot first and ask questions later”mentality is why so many people don’t trust the police any more.
Mahatma, obviously you have never worn a badge or had this type of situation happen to you. Police Officers go to work each day with the goal of going home to their families at the end of shift. A man with an edge weapon be it a sharpened screwdriver or a knife can kill you if he/she is within 21 feet of you. To approach an armed subject with a Tazer instead of a firearm is a recipe for disaster. There was no opportunity the make a decision anyway. When things go wrong they do so instantly and critically more times than not. I am sorry the man with the screwdriver did not follow instructions and far as I van tell he had NO intentions of letting his weapon go and intended to use it. This was the man’s fatal decision.
Mahatma,
It is obvious from he way you started cussing at JP, (who at least for now, by the way has a right here in America to have an opinion even if it differs from yours), that you live in your own Utopian world and would like the rest of us to join you there. In a perfect Utopia and I know the officers involved whish it they could go there, the officers would have had the time to casually step back and go deploy the Tazer. a.k.a Electronic Restraint Device”. However, the REALITY is that this situation evolved in such a way and fast enough that the officers were not able to transition to an intermediate weapon. They met potential deadly force with deadly force. And yes, in answer to your last question, had this been my son or potentially yours, as horrible and unfortunate as it is, I would still have read it the same. way. You Sir do owe JP an apology as insults indicate that you have fallen back into ignorance, and it is so apparent from your arguments that you are striving for the opposite.
Based on previous calls, as well as the comments made by the mother before the shooting occurred ….the shooting was IMO .
Officer Hutchens is a F#$%ing COWARD, and needs to be put in Jail. Yes the guy had a screw driver, Yes he may have threatened his mom, but he was Not that much of a Threat to the Dallas Police, Who DID have TASERS, and could have subdues the guy with a Taser, instead of shooting him full of holes.
COWARDS. You Should NOT be allowed to wear that Badge and Gun.
A screwdriver can be a very lethal weapon. I’m tired of people pointing their fingers at the police after every encounter that turns violent. Think you can do a better job corralling and large, violent mentally ill suspect? Be my guest.
Ron, yeah, you’re right, buddy. Screwdrivers are, indeed, an extremely deadly weapon! Anyone pointing one at police should be immediately shot and killed.
dead. But big Football Players are even Worse! They’re forearms are the deadliest of weapons! So anybody over 6’2″ and over 240 pounds even LOOKING threatening at police should be shot and killed, YUP?
DEAD.
Fuck, but now I’m really concerned. That CB wench next door to you just called the police and said because her stanky dog shit in YOUR driveway again, you ‘THREATENED her life’ by telling her the next time there’s dogshit in your driveway you would shovel it up and throw it on her front steps to see how she liked it?
She also threw in that you are ‘dangerous’ and have guns.
When the cops showed up you happened to be working on your deck outside in the back with your air compressor going while you were using your nail gun and you had your ear plugs in, and when you didn’t hear the police walking up behind you giving you orders to turn around and put down the highly dangerous semi auto high capacity nail gun and when you finally noticed something behind you, you became startled and jumped up and turned around fast with your nail gun still in hand and they opened fire on you and killed you.
But hey, Ron, unlike you, I Definitely think that police can do a better job, They didn’t have to kill you.
Mentally disturbed individual with lethal contact weapon at contact range failing to follow orders in an area with restricted movement options? Got to be kidding me. Yeah, it’s a good shoot. Looked like he aggressively and quickly attempted to close with the officers without dropping the screw driver (and yes, a screwdriver is a lethal stabbing contact weapon, even if you have a vest on). Sorry it turned out this way but the officers had the right to defend themselves and the obligation to defend the public at large. TASERs and pepper spray are not 100% effective and grappling a man with a stabbing weapon is not a good option. Maybe instead of letting nut cases run around on the street they should be permanently locked up with no chance of release. Statistics show that most such mentally disturbed individuals fail to follow medication in the long term unless in controlled environment where medication is mandatory and enforced. But rather then pay for them being institutionalized for everyone’s safety they would rather let them run loose and have the police deal with them, and then this happens. If the guy was not a threat, why call the police in the first place. Maybe she should have called a shrink instead of the cops, but I do not blame the cops for the way they reacted. Sorry they now have to go through all this malarkey, but at least they got to go home safe at the end of their shift.
So Pete, show me in your Academy training where killing an unarmed person for disobeying a police order, or just because he is holding a standard tool, even though he was not actually attacking you directly, is justfied? What if he was deaf or so mentally zoned out that he couldn\’t even comprehend your communication? Initiatory force can be deployed,for the sake of preventing escalation at the discretion of the officers, but it still can\’t be lethal force unless it meets a specific criteria that must later be clearly \’articulated\’ in proceedings under oath.
The caveat is that the officer must have a \’REASONABLE\’ fear of their own lives, before using their firearms with deadly force. You ultimately CANNOT justify your murderous actions by saying that every mentally disturbed person holding anything in his hands or even making a fist makes you so afraid for your life that you have to immediately draw and gun them down before trying anything else!
I can\’t even remember the countless times i was in situations like this. I\’m not saying that i never reacted first in the physical sense if i smelled a potentially bad outcome. But I NEVER had to shoot down and kill any unarmed mentally ill or drugged person acting out, (that IS after all, what they do?) or PTSD\’d out homeless vet, or kid\’s waving and pointing toy guns that look real. And we didn\’t even have Tazers at that time!
Police DO have a right to defend themselves, but lethal force is a LAST resort.if they are trained properly or not \’socially psychotic\’ themselves, in terms of the gestapo mentality?
They do NOT have the right to summarily execute a citizen who is NOT in the process of committing a forcible felony. What\’s next on the despicable descent down the slippery slope of this out of control trend of Gestapoism? Just because a person sounds and looks dangerous and maybe \’busting a move or two\’ that anyone of hyper-sensitive fearfulness can MISinterpret easily enough if they were stupid enough? And therefore the citizen must be immediately gunned down because he\’s \’obviously\’ –in your mind–making you in \’fear for your life?
With your absence of equitable reality perception, Pete, i sure hope you\’re not a cop. But if you are, at least with that attitude your likelihood of remaining one is minimal.
So like i asked the Yote here, Pete, Would these cops have still done the right thing if that was YOUR son?
First of all, they didn’t shoot an unarmed person in this video. He is very clearly armed. I’m not saying I agree with their actions, but I refuse to be the judge, because I don’t have all the information. Finally, if it was my son, I wouldn’t have called the police unless I was in fear for my life.
1st – He was armed, with a screwdriver. A very lethal weapon at close quarters. If you want, I will demonstrate on you.
2nd – Police were called and not given much information besides mentally disturbed and then the armed subject refuses commands and lunges at them in a confined/limited mobility space (cop were obviously mobility restrained by all parked cars in the driveway and the bushes).
3rd – We do give them the right of summary execution if acting in self defense or defense of others, just like any other citizen in this country has. We all have that right, subject to later inquiry and possible criminal action against us should our actions be found wanting in the eyes of the law. The armed subject appeared to be attacking, hence application of deadly force.
4th – If the subject was disturbed enough to call the police he must have been a danger. Otherwise, why call the police and not the mental health professionals? Why was he not put into a controlled institution where he would be kept on his meds? Because our society has the stupid notion that letting the mentally disturbed roam the streets and calling the police is cheaper. It is well known that people suffering the sort of mental disturbance the subject was know to have go off their meds all the time and cannot be trusted to stay medicated. Only being in a controlled mental health facility can be insured to keep them out of harms way and from harming others. Cops are not psychiatrists, nor are the meant to be. If you want psych help, do nto call the police, not really their job or should it be.
Now get off your fragile soapbox before it crumbles under you.
So what you are saying is that it would have been OK to shoot this guy if he had a 3″ sharpened pencil. After all, a sharpened pencil is a tool/weapon as well. Shot and killed person with screwdriver or pencil makes real good reading in your jacket.
Yup. Sharpened pencil can also be lethal, but you are too deluded in your self righteous liberalism to understand that. All three conditions for a lethal force response were met, 1) opportunity 2) ability 3) intent (if he did not intend to assault why did he charge forward, could have retreated into the house). Bought and payed for when he made an aggressive movement toward officers. Sorry, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. BTW, I do not consider mental illness to be a mitigating circumstance under these conditions, if anything it made the subject more dangerous and unpredictable. Maybe, if you lived in the real world, you would understand that.
I’m sorry Mahatma Moashglhaslghasld show me where in the police training manual it says lethal force is the “last resort”? I gurantee you, you will not find such stupidity but in your own little mind. Given the fact that the armed man, shows the tool, which we all know can be used as a weapon, ignores officer’s warnings, CLEARLY STARTS FORWARD AT THE OFFICERS (I cannot fathom how anyone cannot see that, unless they don’t want to because it destroys their pathetic narrative) and the officers, who are pinned into a close proximity by the parked vehicle, are forced to shoot all within a time span of 5.5 seconds. Thats not “execution”, that’s officers preventing themselves to be harmed by an individual who is going thru an psychotic episode and as identified as such by his mother and by his actions. Take your pathetic social narrative somewhere else. You’re out-classed here by this example. Get over it, and yourself.
This is BS. You can’t tell me there is a new bunch of situations to cause this. This is all about the way cops are now reacting to situations. These cops are shooting before they really know what is going on.
What did they think? The guy was walking nicely behind his mother and he didn’t even seem to know the cops were there. The cops didn’t even give the guy time to respond to what they said to him!
Yet another Video of cops using to much force. One could have pulled a gun for backup while the other used a tazer. But they both decided to take his life. And after they seen he was still alive they did nothing to try and save him. Just stood there and watched him and even filmed him like a dog. Yes it looks like he could have been going at them but they decided not to pull a tazer out thw instant they saw the screwdriver. Just shows trigger happy cops like here in jacksonville who love to point Guns at your face even when you need help and are looking for help. This could have been prevented. And yet us citizens are the dangerous ones with guns when its really the ones who are suppost to protect us andhelp us. This is why we the people needto fight for our right to keep our arms to protect ourselves.
I have seen good cops take down a man swinging a sword at them without killing him. These uniformed thugs who have also been trained and had the gear needed to stop the threat without killing him, chose to murder him. I have no faith, no trust and no respect for these uniformed thugs who call themselves “officers”.
I saw that too. Those cops had more support, and a fire truck.
I wish a life threatening situation for you so you can show us just how good you are. Sounds like you never have been in one like me (retired firefighter), police officers, or soldiers. Easy to comment when you have never had seconds in which to make your decisions.
You are a silly person wish harm on another person(s). Like you I have put on the turn out gear. Both my brothers and I hunt and fish and treat the lives of the animals which we harvest with more respect than these two office did with this human being. Carrying a weapon and taking life is serious business. It has been stated on this posting that if the average CCW/CPL holder pulled and used there weapon as this officer did that we would be on our way to prison for a long time. The first thing that the officer’s did wrong was to allow themselves to be as close as they were. Had they placed time and distance between them and him they may had had time to use different measures. Those measures could have been to taze or even use batons. Those who choose to follow blindly with out question deserve what that get.
its a screw driver people.
Ask yourself this question. You’re a licensed CCW holder. You shoot someone and your defense is, “he had a screw driver and he lunged forward.”
Now… what are the odds you’re not going to jail?
In most places in order to be considered a justifiable defensive shooting the shooter has to face both threat and opportunity. Meaning a threat is not enough… the person making the threat must have a reasonable chance of actually being able to follow through. And the standard used of the threat is to “kill or maim”.
Kill or maim
With a screw driver? Through a kevlar vest? with 2 against 1 odds?
No dude.
You do that as a civilian…. you’re spending 15 years in jail at least.
These cops however will get nothing bu a paid vacation.
I didn’t like this response either. But the benchmark for a defensive shoot against a bladed weapon is the ‘Tueller Study’ (eponymously names after an Officer Tueller): At seven yards a man with a knife can close in on you in 1.5 seconds; and you have only a 50/50 chance of survival even if you draw your gun. A screwdriver to the neck or head is fatal. But I didn’t see an aggressive posture or furtive movement or any indication he was about to charge. Very few juries will indict much less convict police officers. If they are indicted, they typically waive a jury trial and a sympathetic judge – he’s part of the same legal machinery as the police and DA – will generally let the police off scott free on the benefit of a doubt. It’s a benefit you as a civilian will never see.
I know about the Tueller study. It has to do with the ability of a person to close in on you and at what speed. So, why do these officer’s allow themselves to be so close to this person. I know for a fact that police officer’s and fire fighter’s DO NOT pull right up in the the front of were a call is placed. In addition, as trained officer’s what happened to there situational awareness. This is a weak excuse for shooting someone. How do two trained officer’s not use a tazer or night sticks on this guy.
I agree with you in regard to what you said about the officers’ preparation prior to knocking on the door. This is similar to the Zimmerman/Martin case. Zimmerman shouldn’t have gotten out of the car, and martin shouldn’t have followed him back to his car and threatened him.
In this case the officers shouldn’t have been 5ft. from the door; and they should have been backing up WHILE giving the ”drop that now!” command. I think there is something to be said of official police procedure here. Why is it that with stabbing weapons, and two police officers present that officers feel the firearm is the go to piece of equipment? Why do they have a taser and pepper spray if they don’t use it? I think if YOU are approaching someone else’s property, and YOU know that every encounter can get ugly very quickly; YOU as a trained officer need to go down the list of hypothetical defense scenarios first.
If a perp has a taser or a firearm; an officer as every right to use his own firearm. If YOU are standing entirely too close, and that perp has a stabbing implement and you don’t go to the taser first…that’s you as a supposedly trained ”peace” officer’s fault. I believe the officers assumed(first mistake) this would be a clean/no problems visit; they got surprised and scared when he came at them…if they’d have been 10 ft away they could have tased him, and he would be fine, and arrested for assault on a police officer. Our police shoot too many people; I’m not saying that some or most aren’t absolutely necessary…but it HAS to be fewer each year that are not necessary.
Yeah, WT Yote? Great attitude! You’d make a good cop by today’s fucked up standards caused by a serious absence of proper training and a deleterious shift in objective reasonableness. But if you were my partner, as soon as i determined your ‘attitude’, I’d tell the watch commander to get me someone else. Because, by working with worst mentally ill cops than the mentally disturbed on the street like these, i would be taking a bigger risk losing everything by being involved in killing someone unnecessarily after having that clearly ‘explained’ to me by the victim’s litigation attorney in a civil court. That’s if i’d be lucky enough not to go to jail.
But here’s the real issue with all this Monday morning quarterbacking. Let me ask you this, WTCoyote, Would you be saying the same thing now, IF THAT WAS YOUR SON?
Go ahead, let me hear you say it.
If it was my son on the video I would be very sad he didn’t obey the officers and drop the “WEAPON”!!!! The Mother was part of the problem also by mixing into the confrontation. If she hadn’t started freaking and run back into the fray maybe the officers could have backed away from the CRAZY GUY WITH THE WEAPON giving themselves extra seconds to assess his intent but HER LIFE WAS IN DANGER ALSO or she wouldn’t have called the police. I love my wife as much as my son. If my wife called the police on my son then I would know he was a danger to her as well as the police.
Wow I never knew the mother had a kevlar vest too. The vest covers the face and groin also right? The Kidney is covered also on all vest’s? I’m a retired Firefighter and with any mentally ill patient you protect yourself and partner first and bystanders second then worry about mentally ill person.The dispatch and words of the mother are the key. The Dallas firefighters words would make giving the officers the benefit of the doubt easy.
Your not very insightful.
I didn’t see any kevlar on the cops face & head.
“Great bodily harm” is all you have to prove you were defending against.
There is so much for you to learn about human nature, weapons, and the many subjects involved in this video.
There’s just not enough time or space in these comments to do it.
Good luck in life, Nate
You are ignorant. Learn the laws and policies before you embarrass yourself on here again. I hope you are not a ccw holder. Go back to watching msnbc. You are missing the rachel madcow show.
Most cops,including these two, are just lazy and are looking for the quickest easiest way to solve the situation. No scuffles,no wrestling just shoot first and ask questions later.These two mutton heads will be cleared of any wrong doing and turned loose on the public again.Sad!!!
Well “dude” – you obviously don’t know what the hell you are talking about! Kevlar WAS NOT designed to stop an edged weapon like a knife, or a screw driver for that matter! I often have to wear a Kevlar vest at work, and that is the first thing that we are taught about the vests that we wear! It is designed to spread the impact energy from a bullet over a wider area, thus preventing that round from penetrating all the way through (depending on the specific round fired, and the level of vest being worn). Doesn’t work the same way w/knives, screwdrivers, etc…
Besides that, a vest doesn’t prevent one from being stabbed in the head, neck, groin, leg, arm …any of which can prove fatal from a punctured artery! So – opportunity is there! Have you NOT heard of the 21 foot (now often extended to 30) rule?
It has been documented/proven time and again that a person with an edged weapon can cover THAT distance and fatally stab someone in LESS than a second. It has also been shown, that it is often impossible to draw your weapon from a holster and fire before the assailant has covered that ground. So – when an assailant is seen to be brandishing a lethal weapon (yes, a screw driver is and should be considered a lethal weapon), the guns come out!!
We have armed bounty hunters who go after people all the time who jump bail:
How come we never hear of them ever killing anyone? I think we should petition the legislature to legalize professional mental health response teams who’s only job is to subdue and/or assist in the handling of mental patients: In actual fact VERY few mental patients are actually dangerous people. They are primarily a danger to themselves from self-injury and are seldom homicidal. With special protective gear, a syringe with phenobarbitol and or a taser, they would no doubt do a better job then the police.
In the meantime my advice for anyone who has a mentally or emotionally unstable family member in the home is NEVER CALL THE POLICE!!…Get a gill net, a lariat, and have a needle with a sedative on hand and/or a stun gun to take him down and tie him up – before you call an ambulance. Put zip ties on him first if you call the police.
The police act on binary logic: Can I justify a shoot?…They don’t care to use less lethal means if it’s easier to pull the trigger.
Another ignorant comment thinking that being deemed “Mentally ill” is an excuse to break laws and hurt/kill other people. You are very incorrect in saying mentally ill very seldom hurt others. A very large percentage of violent and sexual crimes are at the hands of mentally ill people who are taught by people like you that their illicit behavior is always excusable. I hope a mentally ill person never shows up at your door with ill intentions, but if he does, just try talking or giving a pill or whatever you think the answer is. Dead is still dead whether being killed by a mentally ill person or anyone else.
I for one am happy that neither of these officers got hurt. They put their life on the line daily and are underpaid to protect morons like you. Also, comparing bounty hunters to police is just as ignorant as your other comments.
NWA was right.
Express yourself?
One factor that hasn’t been mentioned is the close quarters of the incident. Even if the officers wanted to back off, there was no place to go. The suspect’s size is also a factor. You might be dumb enough to try and wrestle a screwdriver from a 90 lb. female, but no way would I try to get physical with a 250 lb. psycho who is “off his chain” and holding a weapon that could pierce my skull. Anyone who believes that the officers are wrong needs to get in a 10 foot square box with a deranged 250 lb. psycho holding a screwdriver.
Can I have another guy in the box, too, and we both have nightsticks? ‘Cause if so, I like those odds.
Have at it Damon
I am a civilian and thankfully in my right mind… so I know you do what an LEO tells you to do!! This man clearly had serious problems and was a threat. I do wonder, though, don’t police have some info on their computers in their cars that give them some “history” if there were prior calls to a residence that they can pull up to get some idea of what’s happened there before? Or a dispatcher tell them on the way there? It makes me wonder if they knew this “psycho” had actually been violent before they arrived then they would know to be ready for something that could turn go bad quickly and would want to prepare some defensive space around themselves as they were squeezing their way between the cars and the bushes and realized the area was tight there at the door…
Then, when they see him come to the door with the screwdriver, immediately tell your partner and command the woman to move, to get back while you and your your partner start moving back as well past the garage door in front of the car and out away from that narrow area, keeping themselves between the son and the mother to protect her. She in fact was already moving in that direction with her handbag and you can see where she apparently turns and her arm and hand come up as if to try to stop what she is sees is starting to happen — which is that I think she saw (as the officer who shot did) that her son was moving toward them all, not obeying their commands and she is saying something like “no Jay!” as she is trying to get him to calm down and back off the officers.
Of course I know these things happen so fast and I have zero experience having never being in policing or involved in a civilian crime or combat situation… but I think I would just naturally knock on the door and then back up maybe 20 ft and get out from around that car more toward the end of the garage — esp if I knew beforehand that there had been prior calls w/police and/or EMS about a man in the residence who was crazy and who threatened his mother with a butcher knife and brother as well only 3 wks before that day. Just maybe that would’ve given them more reaction time and just perhaps the dude would have taken a step or two and caught himself up short, possibly dropped it when he saw the officers standing back ready with guns drawn… won’t ever know what was in his head but I do think he was the aggressor and it probably would have still ended with him being shot — the only thing my above scenario might have helped would be to clearly show on the body cam that they weren’t some trigger-happy cops and make the case of what I believe was a justifiable shooting even stronger.
This gentleman had a significant past. Several comments made by another man stating that he had made threats several times prior. I would not be willing to be stabbed with a screwdriver in order to try & tase this man first. Would you? Unfortunately the old adage remains… “You can’t fix stupid.” An officer tells you to put a screwdriver down. You put it down. Period. You keep it in your hand and make a lunge toward an officer… Expect to get killed. Who is willing to get stabbed, possibly lethally, in order to attempt to tase him first? Not me. Further, he may have been lunging towards his mother. You can see that briefly in the video where she is head on with the other officer. He shot around her. The officers may actually have saved his mother’s life. It is sad for sure, but the man with the screwdriver called the shots. Just like another man said… “You call the tune you pay the piper.” Screwdriver man called it, & he unfortunately had to pay.
Today’s police officers are not trained in anything except offensive tactics. Even though there was two of them, they opted to use lethal force rather than risk getting into a scuffle. The manner in which they continued to scream at their victim long after it was evident that he was beyond listening attests to their lack of confidence in their defensive skills.
Regardless of the victim’s intentions, this situation should have been assessed completely different. It could have had a much better outcome had the wiggled out of their Victoria’s Secrete thongs before they put on their uniforms that morning.
I’m not sure what the officers’ choice of undergarment has to do with their ability to do their job, but speaking for myself (in boxer briefs, if it matters to you) I would not want to “scuffle” with anyone holding a screw driver. In my opinion, there are 2 reasons to call the police. 1: a crime has been committed and is being reported, and 2: someone is being a danger to those around them. I’d imagine that most officers respond to calls with a similar mindset. So you respond to a call thinking someone is dangerous, get told he’s a “bipolar-schizo,” and he’s holding a screw driver and coming toward you. Do you jump on him like a proverbial grenade, hoping the screw driver gets stuck in your ribs and that gives our partner enough time to detain him and call you an ambulance, or do you act in a way that lets both and your partner survive? In either case someone isn’t going home that night. On the taser, as a less than lethal device, they are much more apt to fail to stop someone. Look up taser failure if you aren’t aware of the possibility. Pepper spray, less-lethal shotgun rounds and every other means “non-lethal” force can, and had, failed to perform as expected in the past. In some cases this results in officers getting hurt or killed. Who’s got more of a right to live? I’m not qualified to answer that, but if I were in this situation, I would do everything in my power to make sure I survive.
Respectfully, if I have another large, able-bodied male with me, whom I have served with and trust, and our assailant is armed with a 3-inch screwdriver, and is alone, he is going to get roughed up some and leave in the back of the squad car, sorry, but breathing.
Civilians are prosecuted if they use inappropriate force. Had this been two males on the street approached by a lone man holding a screwdriver, and they shot him 5 times, not a single DA in the nation would not attempt to press murder charges.
Like many of you, I am always armed, and not with a screwdriver. I expect police to know and acknowledge that this is the natural state of citizens in this nation, and react to and interact with us with better procedures and thought processes than the blind panic displayed by these two LEOs.
And when that 3″ screwdriver is pierced into you or your friend’s chest, what are you going to do then? Dumb comment.
Greg, respectfully, a 3″ screwdriver, after going through my uniform shirt, my vest, and my t-shirt, is going to put a little tiny hole about 1 1/2″ inches deep in my pectoral muscle. But that’s beside the point. The point is “appropriate force”. This same situation was played out in a NYC subway train in the 1980s, and the shooter, Bernhardt Goetz, did 14 years in prison for using inappropriate force, even though there were 5 assailants and one of him.
Here, the situation was 2 on 1, the LEOS were warned and aware and had a choice of responses.
I don’t live in a police state. I have no desire to live in a police state. When I interact with law enforcement, I make sure that they 1) understand that I am legally armed, and 2) I intend to comply with legal directions given, and will not comply with illegal search or seizure of my person or property. These are my Constitutionally – protected rights as an American citizen. Allowing police to default respond with lethal force to every situation they encounter that they perceive to be a threat (I’ve seen scarier nail files than that guy’s screwdriver) is as dangerous to American civil rights as the BATFE is to the 2nd Amendment. Bottom line, if your sole focus as a cop is self-protection and not law enforcement, you’re in the wrong job, because the job will put you in dangerous situations every day. Learn hand-to-hand, or get to know your nightstick, because if the pistol is the only tool in your belt, all your problems look to need shooting.
A LEO’s ( Law Enforcement Officer ) job is not to protect you or save you.
His job is to enforce the laws.
It’s your job to protect yourself.
Comply with a LEO, and don’t break laws.
It’s just that simple.
You are an idiot. This guy had several oppurtunities to drop his weapon and he didnt. Being mentally ill is not an excuse to break the law and kill people. His own mother feared him. You obviously hate police because of your criminal past. You are the first person to think about male cops and victorias secret underwear. Just another of your issues.
Don, I don’t know what you read but, this guy neither broke any laws nor killed anyone. Being mentally deficient absolutely, by definition, means that this possibly did recognize his holding that screwdriver as a threat additionally, if you knew anything about the mentally impaired especially, those that suffer from the maladies this man did, intensifying the situation by brandishing weapons, yelling and, talking fast did nothing but make a confused individual that much more confused. His mother did not fear him as she casually walked out of the home and told the police his current state and that, as evidently she had before, that he was off his meds. Given this information these police should have known better how to deescalate the situation and take this man to the pysche ward of the nearest hospital and not to the morgue. I hope Don that you never have a child or loved one that suffers from mental illness if, you had, you would know how too often these situations might arise with these individuals. Given your train of thought you would probably say we should just put these folks away as we did in this country at one point not that far back in our past. Don, the idiot Sir, is you.
I have one other comment, DON’T CALL THE POLICE UNLESS IT IS A LIFE THREATENING SITUATION. When the popo arrive they have no real idea what is going on and they are trained that all members of the public are threats, that means YOU even if you are the one making the call.
Its very sad but that’s the way it is.
As near as I can tell – He lunged at them with the screwdriver. If that had happened in my front yard to me I would have shot the dude too. Having said that, this guy probably didn’t need to be shot, the shooters partner is carrying a tazer after all. But it looks justifiable.
If you would have shot him, you would be up on murder charges now.
Also–you are completely blind. It was the cop who moved blurring the frame/action.
There was no need to shoot the man down like they did.
These cops were psychotic cowards–I hope they are put up on murder charges.
First, a screwdriver is equivalent to a knife/ice pick as a deadly weapon. Second, a Taser is not a proper or safe response to an armed subject that can bury that screwdriver in your temple standing 5 feet away in under 1.2 seconds from a standing stop. That’s how cops end up with their names inscribed on monuments to the fallen. This perp had a history of attacks against family and others with a butcher knife. The cops probably knew that. They acted remarkably well as their training taught them to do.
You’ve been watching way too many TV cop dramas.
First, a screwdriver is equivalent to a knife/ice pick as a deadly weapon. Second, a Taser is not a proper or safe response to an armed subject that can bury that screwdriver in your temple standing 5 feet away in under 1.2 seconds from a standing stop. That\’s how cops end up with their names inscribed on monuments to the fallen. This perp had a history of attacks against family and others with a butcher knife. The cops probably knew that. They acted remarkably well as their training taught them to do.
You\’ve been watching way too many TV cop dramas.
Unfortunately, from what I saw, the body camera did NOT show an aggressive movement by the decedent. What I saw was him holding the screwdriver with both hands, one on the handle and one on the blade as if he were playing with it absent-mindedly. As was said in the story, we were not there and did not see everything in context.
So the part of him rapidly approaching the officer was to hand him the screwdriver?
Jim, i did not see, in this video, a “rapid approach” toward the officers. you could not see the movement of the man until he was falling. What you saw was the officers raise their weapons and escalate a situation in which they had not prepared themselves given a known mentally impaired individual. They positioned themselves between and vehicles and the the garage of the home. I believe that your assumption that the victim approached the officers rapidly, is just that, an assumption and not substantiated by the video.
He moved aggressively towards the woman and/or the officer, couldn’t tell the position of the screwdriver but why take the chance of injury to her or fellow officer.
This is another situation where the officers should have more training in dealing with things like this. It is apparent that this man did not charge the officers. They are all armed with pepper spray and night sticks and could have used either of them rather than deadly force. There were two officers involved and there is no way that this man could have been a real threat to them. They should not be on the police force. This sort of mentality is a problem that could be trained through better training in my opinion.
The subject should have had better training from his parents to LISTEN TO THE PO-PO when ordered to drop the weapon.
You know what John, get off your high horse or more likely your couch and become a police officer. Your Monday morning QBing is sadly lacking. Officers are trained to reach for their firearms at the first sight of imminent danger you tool. This is clearly a good shoot, and like most of them an unfortunate one. The police did not make this individual with psyche problems stop taking his meds. The police did not make him pick up the screwdriver, a tool, like a knife, that can be used as a weapon. The police did not make him advance upon their position with said weapon. Only if time and safety allow it, does an officer have discretion to put his firearm away and use other instruments at their disposal. Now exactly when in the 5.5 seconds after the individual brandishes the screwdriver till the time he advanced and was shot did you want the officers to holster their firearms and pull a taser? Remember, each officer is responsible for covering his fellow officer in circumstances such as this. So again, when did they have the time Mr. 20/20 Hindsight?
So you want us to become low-mentality, minimum-wage, political enforcers so we can understand you?!
You’re insane, as are most police now.
My constitutional rights are waaaaaaay more important than your perceived needs of going home safely.
You stand a greater chance of being killed by a police officer in this country, than by being killed by a terrorist.
The insane mentality of police now has to be reined in somehow.
Well said, Greg! 😉
With only mere seconds to act I feel that the shooting was justified. That being said, what about enhanced 911 being used to flag the address (or individual) ?? What about the report from the medics the decedent had been hospitalized in a psych unit ?
I can’t tell from this video if the shooting was justified or not. To me, it APPEARS it was justified. This is another case of “John Q” citizen should have personal experience before coming to any conclusions. Use pepper spray, use the taser. First of all, it appeared to me they didn’t have time to go to either of those weapons. If John Q had any knowledge of situations like this, he would know that pepper spray and or tasers frequently do not work on mental cases. Two frenzied Officers were giving this guy commands. Only one should speak, then in a calm voice. “Hey, my friend, let’s put that thing down and talk about this, okay.” But, was there really enough time to do that? It appears not. I still don’t like two Officers yelling commands. My method may have worked, and it may not. I would say probably not, but worth a try. It’s better than two guys yelling orders at a mental case.
I retired from Corrections and had a brain injured inmate whose injury eliminated his control. He stabbed his landlord to death with a screw driver. He made attempts to do the same to Officers when his anger escalated. To state what you have shows you have never been in close quarters with an individual who wants to stab you. The only concern is to stop his actions
Clearly you know nothing about OC spray or the effects of drugs on perps. Any cop that has encountered someone high on meth or PCP will tell you that the bear strength spray is not immediately effective. Are you willing to bet your life that it will be? A screwdriver is a deadly weapon just like a knife or a baseball bat. Like OC spray, a Taser is for subduing an unarmed, physical threat. Cops don’t have to wait until they’re stabbed before they can defend themselves.
I know a cop who almost died from being struck in the head by a homeless man carrying a wooden club. The suspect had been hitting street signs and vandalizing businesses – basically petty stuff. He received permanent brain damage from the attack. His partner shot and killed the guy. The after action report indicated that the officers were too passive in the confrontation when the perp failed to respond to verbal orders to drop the weapon and it almost cost a cop his life.
The guy with the screwdriver is responsible for what happened by his actions threatening the officer. If anyone shares the blame, it’s the shrink that released this previously violent and assaultive person back into society unhealed.
I have just retired from 29 years in federal law enforcement and have been a firearms instructor for the last 20. My view is that it was a good shoot. Though unfortunately the Achilles Heel of video systems is their narrow tunnel of view and thus it was not trained on the subject the entire time, the camera clearly showed some forward motion on behalf of the subject while continuing to resist (by way of not following orders to drop the weapon). This wasn’t an issue of a mentally retarded (yeah I know its no longer PC to say that but hey I just retired so I have the right to speak freely again) person unable to comprehend the orders given. I have dealt with many bi-polar and schizophrenic people throughout the years. Heck, it turns out that for a while I was even married to one! Early in my career I faced an identical situation while in the U.S. Border Patrol, fortunately my suspect was smart enough to follow commands after considering his options and not advancing on me and dropping the screw driver. I have also dealt with a similar situation involving a machete. Good shoot, decent follow through. My only critique would be to have cleared the house to ensure there was no additional threat inside such as another family member planning on avenging on behalf of his fallen kin. May God Bless and protect these officers from the shit storm and politicians that will probably try to throw them under a bus for political expediency and self serving purposes.
It’s a good thing you’re retired. That mentality is part of the problem. It wasn’t a “good shoot”. Cops are all too happy to pull the trigger first. Just like the cop that shoots a dog because “he felt threatened” only to find out that the dog weighed 25 pounds and was waggy its tail while walking toward the cop. If you’re too scared to confront someone that is casually standing there holding a screwdriver in a non-threatening manner, then maybe you should go work at Starbucks, Pathetic cops….
Funny someone like you mentioning Starbucks. Your an idiot.
What I saw was the victim with a screwdriver charge to his left. We’re unsure who or what he is going for. These cops were sure quick to shoot this guy multiple times. If these cops were half the bad asses they think they are they could have subdued this guy with non lethal or just wrestled that screwdriver away from him!!!!! They were NOT justified in killing this guy especially if he was a mental case!! None of these cops instituted first aid or cpr, they just stood around like the dumbasses they are!!!! There is a OVER MILITARIZATION OF THE POLICE in this country! They are NOT there to “KILL THE ENEMY” ie the citizenry, but to enforce the law!!! What ever happened to the phrase they used to have on the sides of their cars ” To serve and protect” In this situation they just came out, over reacted, and 2nd degree murdered this guy!! We need to put more of a choker collar and a leash on these cops. If I were mayor of Dallas I would have fired both of those cops, if for nothing else using poor judgement!!! PS I am a WHITE, MULTIPLE GUN OWNING,CONCEALED PERMIT, OBAMA DISAPPROVING, REPUBLICAN, NRA LIFE MEMBER!!
You 100% right, the cops just shoot him and hang around like jerks.
Casually holding a screwdriver? Did you stop the video at that point? OR did you watch the rest?
Thank you, well said.
Bruce, thank you for your service. I agree with what you said. These cops followed their training and responded appropriately. I challenge any one of these Monday morning quarterbacks mall ninjas to go through the 21-foot drill with a physically fit male unscathed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM
Unfortunately, Jim, you saw what you wanted to see, and the body camera DID show the man moving aggressively toward the LEO.
He was commanded to “DROP IT” four times before the shots were fired.
Your a fool if you think he was absent mindedly playing with a screw driver.
It was his weapon of choice, and came to the door immediately with it, just after hearing the police announcing their presence.
Do you not know that a screwdriver puts holes in people just like a bullet does?
The LEO could have retreated, and maybe trip, and get a screw driver plunged into his head repeatedly.
How about the other family members could have been murdered if no one had shown up to the call.
Is that your preferred outcome?
Maybe you and John should start a “Pussy Police Force” and see how long you last, saving the world?
It’s too bad our cops have to go through this shit, having to take lives, and live with these memories.
I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be one, and have a job looking for trouble all day.
Maybe you critics should give it a try.
That’s the way it goes folks. Maybe “Everytown” will want to ban screwdrivers.
And that still wont stop deranged criminals from wanting to kill.
Good vs Evil is a constant thing, and your naive to think it will ever end.
Russ, besides being ignorant, you’re an #@$hole.
No, YOUR TH F*****g A**hole! Police get paid to enforce our laws! THEY DO NOT GET PAID TO TAKE A ONE WAY TRIP TO THE MORGUE!! It’s easy enough to ARMCHAIR quarter back a video, but until YOU have been in the same situation, keep your opinions to yourself until ALL the facts are in!!
Ad hominem. You lose.
From what I saw they should not have approached past the cars. They placed themselves in a confined killzone. They should have called the Mother out and from that point proceeded from a different scenario that might have evolved from that point.
As to the EMS, APPALLING LACK OF URGENCY AND HUMANITY towards their Patient!!!!!! This video should be reviewed by TDH EMS Compliance for cause, and it is reasonably arguable their inaction is contributory to the man’s death. In my opinion they failed in every manner of speaking to their respective duties to this patient. At least they were quick on a scene, but that’s all that can be said well of them.
i agree, the EMS guy stood around with his thumb up his ass and made no attempt to check on this guy.
As a police officer in a potentially dangerous situation as this seems could have been. However, as a police officer we have an assortment of defensive tactics they have at their disposal such as tazing,, pepper spray etc.The officers could have backed off a bit to give them some room but instead these two cops decide it is time to kill this guy because e poses a threat to their safety.
I believe this mentally ill man could have been subdued without shooting him to death. Stupid, but in this day and age in America, cops are not taking any chances with their lives. Tough call but he didn’t have to die.
What I saw was the victim with a screwdriver charge to his left. We’re unsure who or what he is going for. These cops were sure quick to shoot this guy multiple times. If these cops were half the bad asses they think they are they could have subdued this guy with non lethal or just wrestled that screwdriver away from him!!!!! They were NOT justified in killing this guy especially if he was a mental case!! None of these cops instituted first aid or cpr, they just stood around like the dumbasses they are!!!! There is a OVER MILITARIZATION OF THE POLICE in this country! They are NOT there to “KILL THE ENEMY” ie the citizenry, but to enforce the law!!! What ever happened to the phrase they used to have on the sides of their cars ” To serve and protect” In this situation they just came out, over reacted, and 2nd degree murdered this guy!! We need to put more of a choker collar and a leash on these cops. If I were mayor of Dallas I would have fired both of those cops, if for nothing else using poor judgement!!! PS I am a WHITE, MULTIPLE GUN OWNING,CONCEALED PERMIT, OBAMA DISAPPROVING, REPUBLICAN, NRA LIFE MEMBER!!
So what you are saying is that the police should risk their lives to please YOU? Police are not studio wrestlers. What happens when a police officer charges the man to subdue him as you think that they should and ends up stabbed to death?
I agree that this ia/was a bad shooting. I do have to point out though that the cops are restricted from rendering first aid of any type given the concerns for placing them in a position of liability. I do think that the EMS personnel may be sighted for not rendering proper aid and therefore opening the city (if that city employees the EMS) to liability.
As was pointed out by a couple of other individuals, the police wittingly placed themselves in a position that was not conducive to dealing with a possible combative situation. It was obvious that the officer nearest the garage had the thought in mind after knocking on the door as he backed up and sought a position away from the front door. Given that fact he should have been more than aware that he offered himself no where to retreat if necessary. When these two cops approached the door they were patently unprepared to deal with a mentally deficient individual. It was equally apparent that they were lacking in procedural awareness in that after shooting the victim they made no effort to check the house for either a threat or possible victim. To the nut that uttered something about “what do we want the mother to have been a victim”, the mother made the call dumbshit and, she came out the door in a calm matter of fact manner as if, this was not unusual and that the police had done this, at this residence before which, they had (apparently, not these cops). It seems as if life has become less meaningful in this county from all sides criminal and on behalf of law enforcement. We really need an examination of our culture across the board. We are no longer the light of the world.
Jim, If you pause it on different frames you will see the sudden forward motion.
Absolutely correct… I saw no aggressive movements by this guy, and he was shot down by two overly aggressive cops.
If this were you or I who shot this guy, we would instantly be up on charges of murder.
We would have to spend our entire life savings against a government with unlimited resources.
If you watch this video–the psycho cops are ordering this guy they’ve just shot to “drop the screwdriver” –ordering a guy who’s just recieved 5 shots to the chest and who’s incabable of responding as he lay dying. This is the psychotic mentality that is being programmed into police these days.
If “Dog The Bounty Hunter” can subdue some thug who skipped on a warrant without using a firearm–why do police have to use lethal force as their first reaction?!
My rights and your rights are way more important than then needs of a minimum-wage Nazi (government employee/political enforcer) to go home safely.
FYI–the police are no longer your friends.
My wife (who is a Japanese national) has commented extensively on this subject and refers to American Police as “crazy” and “out of control” as compared to Japanese police.