Can I still sell my personal firearms on GunsAmerica or other internet mediums? The short answer is yes, you can.
What does an administration do when it is a complete failure? Make urgent headlines about guns, to distract people from what is really going on, to keep them in denial that the America they once knew is gone. But from a GunsAmerica perspective, the question everyone needs to ask is what repercussions does this new list of executive actions have on the sale of guns online. Can I still sell my personal firearms on GunsAmerica, or other internet mediums?
The short answer is yes, you can. But it does require a little bit of background for the casual observer, and the explanation is a little bit involved.
To start, you may or may not know this, but since Sandy Hook, there has been a huge uptick in people horsetrading guns online. I am actually a frequent customer on GunsAmerica, as well as the founder, and I also troll the Facebook gun boards and some discussion boards, as well as the Craigslist type boards. When you first go on the Facebook boards especially, it seems like people are selling their own guns, but quickly you realize that most of the people are buying guns privately and flipping them. When a gun hits the board for anything less than 10% off of market value, these same people are all over it and will buy it out from under you really quick. The same is true of the “Craigslist” type websites that have sprung up out there. It has become something of a Wild West out there for gun sales, and don’t think ATF hasn’t noticed. Since the Patriot Act, all of the Federal agencies have full time internet trolls patrolling all of those boards, and periodically those people selling a lot of guns without an FFL license get arrested. I personally don’t agree with the requirement to have a license to do business in guns, but I don’t make the laws.
With this “new” executive action, there really is nothing new. The ATF has always had complete discretion when it comes to deciding what constitutes dealing in guns without a license, and as many people have already noted, they have prosecuted people for a few as two firearms.
Selling a personal collection, or even legitimately horsetrading to get guns that you want isn’t “dealing in guns.” Generally you would have owned those guns for longer than a few days or weeks. This should immediately take you out of the realm of someone who is “dealing” in firearms, because clearly the guns were not purchased to resell. The ATF knows when you purchased the guns for the most part, because they are now getting all the 4473 records, which are digitized these days from all large gunshops and even a number of small ones. I personally don’t believe that the background check records are not saved, regardless, and if you buy a gun at a gunshop, you can bet that the government not only knows. They remember.
If all of your purchases were through individuals, it wouldn’t hurt to right now make a list of your guns, and sign it and get it notarized, which is an official date. You could also mail yourself a letter of your guns, shoot a video of your guns, take pictures, etc. All of these things will establish that the guns were bought a long time ago, and that you had no intention of “dealing” in firearms.
What I can tell you from personal experience is that ATF does not go after people who are legitimately selling their own guns, even a lot of them, which is perfectly legal. As hard as it is for many pro 2A people to accept, the people they bust are actually dealing in guns without a license. The law is the law is the law, for everyone (except the bankers and oligarchs), so if you don’t like the law, fight to change it, not that it would ever work.
For years I have warned people about doing business with the Facebook and Craigslist type of quasi-dealers, because you could get caught up in a bust, but everyone says I’m just pitching for GunsAmerica. Sure I pitch for GunsAmerica blah blah blah.
The real back story, and the one the government doesn’t want you to think about, is that people have been forced to go into horse trading of guns because the labor participation rate is the lowest it has been since the 1960s, and it most likely is even lower than that. Our country is broke and dying, and we are on the precipice of devolving into chaos, which is why they want the guns.
Investing in Firearms
Another side of why this fear porn of an executive action really changed nothing is zero interest rates, or ZIRP (zero interest rate policy). Non-depreciating physical assets have become a convenient place to park money since the whole idea of making interest on your money disappeared in 2009 when the Federal Reserve lowered interbank interest rates to zero. That has made it so that if you don’t want to put your cash into a very risky and overvalued stock market, physical assets are your only option. This week a prior Fed official came forward and explained that the essentially free money created the cliff of a stock market that our country is currently hanging off.
As I explained in my original article Buy Guns Not Gold, back in 2010, and subsequent articles since, gold and silver are heavily manipulated markets, and while gold is a great place to store purchasing power historically, guns and other physical assets that don’t really depreciate are a much better risk if you want to make a return on your money.
These days I don’t know that there is a safe store of any money, but in stressing the “you need a license to deal guns” legal restrictions, The Obama Administration is trying to scare people out of parking their money in firearms, for fear that they won’t be able to liquidate the asset when the money is needed.
I think this would be an issue if you bought 500 AR receivers waiting for the next ban scare. But for most of us who accumulate guns we want and figure we’ll sell them when we need the money, it has never been historically an issue in the past, and I don’t think this executive order makes a bit of difference in the future.
If you wanted to sell a bunch of guns at one time, there is nothing preventing you from contacting your local ATF office and letting them know that you are selling a private collection and that you are not flipping the money back into guns to buy and sell in the future.
For 500 AR receivers, good luck trying to convince them that you didn’t buy them specifically to sell at a profit, which is indeed dealing in guns. If you are sitting on that kind of inventory, sell a half a dozen of them, rent some office space and get your FFL license. I don’t know why the Facebook guys don’t do that to begin with.
Is a Ban Coming
Well duh, of course a ban is coming. So many people wouldn’t be convinced that they faked Sandy Hook(PDF), and Amazon wouldn’t have banned the book that I just linked to if anyone paying attention didn’t know that oligarchs always create a totalitarian state and take the guns away. But if you look through the executive action, the entire thing is meant to make sure that every gun is tied to an individual. The idea of “universal background checks” is the only concept they can get traction on, and that will be the next thing, not a gun ban. There are too many guns in America to ban them without proper preparation. Ten years after “universal background checks,” the oligarchs will have a form on every gun in the US, then they’ll take them away (but we aren’t going to get that far).
When you are selling a gun, even now, have been telling people for years to use our GunsAmerica Dropoff Locations, and pay your local dealer $20 to send out the gun for you when you sell it, just to cover yourself. America is already a totalitarian state, but the majority of the people have been Fox News’d, NFL’d, and Kardashian’d enough that their brains can still deny it. The America we believed in is gone, forever.
Is There Anything Actually New?
From what I see, there is nothing of substance there that we didn’t already know. The Obama Administration several times has said that they will be eliminating the ability to buy an NFA firearm with a legal trust. That was coming regardless. The mental health issue I have been warning people about for years. Be careful with what you let your doctor prescribe. The Affordable Care Act was more about nationalizing health records than it was about providing disadvantaged people with health insurance. I actually got a letter from my insurance company yesterday requiring me to get one of my kids a Social Security number who didn’t have one yet. When I had a baby last year, even a midwife birth center made sure that we had my baby’s social security card within a week of birth. The only value America has left to the world is the taxable income of me and you, so they need to make sure that their numbers are in order.
Almost all foster care kids these days are put on Ritalin or some SSRI drug. The FDA just approved Oxycodone for pediatric use a few weeks ago. If you are a veteran and you were diagnosed with PTSD, most likely you are already on a list of people who won’t be allowed to own a firearm shortly.
As for “ATF has established an Internet Investigation Center to track illegal online firearms trafficking and is dedicating $4 million and additional personnel to enhance the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network.,” I see it as just another money suck to fund and justify the ongoing expensses of their Fusion Centers. Prior to the Patriot Act, Federal Agents were prohibited from trolling online, and this just sends some more money into the system. Of course $4,000,000 is nothing in the Federal Government world. Maybe a little better food in the cafeteria for the brown shirts.
Weapons of Mass Distraction
This entire thing is just another Weapon of Mass Distraction. Don’t let yourself be Fox News’d into a constant state of sleep. The real issue is that our planet is dying, and they want to keep track of all the guns, because the time is almost here where they won’t be able to cover it up anymore. When that happens, when people are told that they can’t drive their cars anymore, and that they have to enter a lottery to be able to have children, there will be armed revolts worldwide. I don’t care if Donald Trump or Mickey Mouse is our next president, if we even make it that far. You have been warned, and if you are part of the distraction, please consider coming forward, even if it means that you lose your paycheck and pension.
As for this executive action, nothing is illegal today that wasn’t illegal yesterday. The Facebook boards and Craigslist will be policed much more than they have been in the past. At GunsAmerica, all purchases have an electronic paper trail and they always have. There is always a record of you communications and sales that nobody can fake and entrap you with. People also don’t get their houses robbed from selling here like they do on the Facebook and local boards, and we make sure GunsAmerica is the safest and most legitimate environment for individuals to buy and sell their personal firearms, and for dealers to advertise what they have on the shelf, and what they can get from distribution. A great reckoning has been coming for a long time for those who think they can deal in firearms without a license, and perhaps that reckoning has come today.
what is the different from Financing a car or leasing?
Just wanted to comment on something. I very innocently tried to sell a very old (I was told it was a black powder pistol from the 1800’s) on Ebay. I figured it was ok since it was so old, and I didn’t even believe that it could still fire a shot, although I was later told it could. The pistol was given to me as a piece of my deceased uncle’s estate which I inherited. I am not a gun collector, although my father and my uncles were all avid hunters and I have always lived with guns in our home while growing up. My dad also owned a liquor store in a not so great area, and he always was packing for his protection . Anyway, I innocently placed it on ebay at around 6pm the other evening, and not even 30 seconds later my phone rang and it was ebay watchguards telling me I was not allowed to post any guns on ebay, even non firing antique pistols. It amazed me that they called my so quickly. It was as though they have special staff on duty just to prevent gun sales. Unbelievable!!!!
Barry’s executive orders should be ignored as they are unconstitutional. He cannot make law through executive orders. Congress makes laws, the individual states make laws and gun laws are designated to the states. Barry is not king even this wannabe communist dictator thinks he is. Ignore him and his attempt to circumvent the constitution.
Hi Paul, I am a licensed FFL with an online store. I have one comment on your article concerning the BATF being aware of the guns that you own.
“. . .The ATF knows when you purchased the guns for the most part, because they are now getting all the 4473 records, which are digitized these days from all large gunshops and even a number of small ones. I personally don’t believe that the background check records are not saved, regardless, and if you buy a gun at a gunshop, you can bet that the government not only knows. They remember. . .”
The BATF does not get the 4473 records. I maintain the 4473 records of all gun sales as well as a logbook of firearms acquisitions/dispositions. These records are kept on my premises and as long as I remain in business, they will remain with me until they are 20 years old and then they are destroyed. My records can be inspected by the BATF to ensure compliance with the laws and in cases when a sold firearm used to commit a crime is traced to a sale from my store.
The BATF and FBI do get notification, via the NICS background check system, that an individual attempted to purchase a handgun or a long gun from a licensed FFL dealer. They do not get notified that the sale was completed. Only, that a background check was done in connection with a purchase.
I understand that there are those individuals that don’t want the government to even know that they own a gun and I respect their convictions. But to say that the BATF and FBI know what you own is misleading. They don’t.
I think part of what he’s alleging is that the data you send to NICS which contains the personal identifiers of the prospective buyer is not destroyed after approval as they it’s supposed to be. That said I think what you are saying is that no specific firearm data is included with the data transmitted to NICS. If I pass a background check and buy a Colt AR 15 SN 12345678 the only data that goes to NICS are my personal identifiers not the type, SN etc of the firearm. So NICS has only my info not the info pertaining to the actual firearm I purchased.
That is correct, Steve. Your personal info from the 4473 is all that FBI gets through NICS.
I know for a fact that if you do NOT turn in your records to ATF when you cease to be a dealer, they don’t automatically track that and visit you. I know of three small dealers that sat on their records for between 12 and 20 years, eventually just burning them.
You, sir, are delusional. Please two aspirin and call a therapist ion the morning.
I don’t agree with her claims about Sandy Hook but he is dead on right about the strategy of expanding the list of prohibited persons. That’s why Obama is calling for adding people on the no fly list, a list compiled in secret, with no due process of law whatsoever, to be added to the prohibited persons list. The “mentally ill” technically includes every person with a DSM diagnosis. That would include every person who has ever had a mental health counseling session paid by insurance since insurance won’t pay without a diagnosis. It also includes every child who has been prescribed an ADHD med, every person with a prescription for anxiety medications etc. All that’s needed is to expand the definition of who is included in the current mental health based prohibitions.
Sorry “his” claims not “her” claims.
Useful info on the latest presidential fiat, Paul, thank. But then, at the end you went all bizarro on me. Egad. Tip: Some gum, possibly Beeman’s, is still wrapped in tinfoil.
I am selling several close relatives estates online. However, I ship everything through a dealer now (dealer to dealer), rather than shipping direct to their dealer, just to be safe. Thanks Obama for the extra cost and hassle. The veteran’s widows will appreciate it, I am sure. I never ship direct to an individual , unless antique or black powder. Thanks for screwing up law abiding folks.
Obama and anyone who supports him are nothing but loud mouth liars. period. There is no polite way to describe them. His latest “gun control” measures are more of the usual . . . a lot of hot air intended to goad their uninformed followers on to more BS.
This is just “yet another” attempt by the Obama admin. to distract the American people away from all the national (and international) crap he’s neglected for 7 years that is now hitting the fan. This is how he tries to divert attention away from the real problems he’s created in the U.S. and his total failure as POTUS. Never mind ISIS, illegal immigration, Iran nuke deal, Saudi/Iran conflict, releasing terrorists from Gitmo, Holder’s fast & furious, Lerner’s IRS, Hitlary’s Benghazi, racial and class division. He truly hopes you’ll all forget about his monumental failures as potus if he brings up “gun control” as the most pressing issue. Don’t be duped by the “divider in chief”.
Of course the government remembers–I had a gun chased down by the ATF ten years after the background check was originally done. Where else would they get that info????
ATF has to contact the manufacturer of a particular firearm, they then have to tell them what dealer or distributor the firearm was shipped to. ATF has to contact each dealer in the chain until a sale is made to a non-licensee so they can pull a 4473. The only 4473’s that are maintained by ATF are for dealers that have gone out of business. They’re supposed to send their records in but there’s no way to enforce that.
Are you an FFL? I am and have had only one call on a handgun that I sold to a mother who gave it as a bonifide gift to her 17 year old son for Christmas…. after I checked with the Troopers and the ATF to see if that was legal… it was. The kid later grew up to adult age and sometime after that he sold or traded the gun which eventually ended up in the hands of a felon who was arrested on drug and violence charges and they added felon in possession. ATF traced the serial # from the manufacturer to the wholesaler who showed them he had sold it to my business… they called me and I gave them the phone number of the young man who was now in college. The young man said he never was in any sort of problem and he of course revealed who he sold or traded it to to the ATF. That’s the only time in 36 years that they have ever called about a firearm.
They get that info by going to the manufacturer or importer to determine what distributor the gun was shipped to. Then they go to the distributor who tells them what FFL it was shipped to. The FFL then has the records on premises of who it was sold to. In practice this just takes a few phone calls or faxes back and forth to get the information. This works reliably because all of these manufacturers, distributors and dealers are required to keep records on every firearm.
To Chris Wagner JANUARY 8, 2016, 9:20 AM
Thank you for saving me a lot of typing. Even in CALIFORNIA the ATF is not collecting 4478s unless the local LEO flags you because or a transgression after a gun sale, ie domestic violence, robbed a market or are 5150.
First, let me say, I know very little about the process other than from my own experience.
I read the article, replies and rebuttals. Unless, there are different information request for submitting a background check within the states, I would think that the federal requirements would be the same for all transactions, regardless of “big store/little store”.
Just, seems to me, there is too much inconsistency between the commenters. Someone doesn’t know what’s going on or, maybe, they’re offering too much information Probably, not good either way.
“Michael Ambrosini” is a good example of one submitting to fear , unplugging himself and rejoining the blind society…
I am the owner of 150+ handguns, 50 + long guns, 3 ARs and a legal Mac 10….I shoot, hunt and enjoy my guns. I am a “gun nut” if there ever was one. However I am not a nut. This article is so full of errors and paranoia I am embarrassed as a gun owner. You are a poster boy of what is the general public think of gun owners. Get some help.
Don’t know about you but I don’t own a single weapon…well maybe the one that I happen to be carrying with my concealed carry permit in my belt. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
The part about Sandy Hook is way out in left field. However, make no mistake, the new gun control strategy is:
1. Force all sales through dealers and a background check.
2. Prohibit as many persons as possible by adding new prohibited classes starting with the ‘no-fly list’, a list upon which people are placed with no due process of law, then moving on to expanding the “mentally ill” that are included to the point that it includes everybody who had an ADHD med as a kid and everybody who has ever seen a mental health counselor. At that point about 70 million people will be prohibited. It will go on from there.
Calm down folks. Remember this . . . . every American soldier, LEO, or agent has taken an OATH to “protect and defend the CONSTITUTION” not some tin pot dictator. That oath is for life and many in the military and LEO will fulfill it with their lives. It is not gun grabbers you need to worry about, it is the usurping of our Constitution.
https://www.oathkeepers.org
CONGRESSMEN, PRESIDENT AND JUDGES TAKE THE SAME OATH. DO YOU THINK THAT OATH MEANS ANYTHING TO THEM. I BELIEVE IT MEANS SOMETHING TO OUR MILITARY THOUGH.
Whether or not the oath means anything to the military, the are controlled by and follow the orders of the presidents, senators and congressmen to whom the oath means nothing.
Not to mention the legion of bureaucrats who have made no such oath and are interspersed between elected officials and the military.
If Pannetti says, “Go house to house and arrest everyone wearing white socks, we think (translation: our imagination has run away with us again) white socks mean you’re a terrorist,” the military will do what Pannetti says. No questions asked. Has any member of the military/any elected official ever been prosecuted for violating their oath? Oaths are jokes. They mean nothing. You can stand in the middle of the street or in a court room and yell, “Posse Comitatus” until you’re blue in the face. It won’t stop the guys in the military from shooting you. Fortunately, I believe that it is pretty weird to actually believe members of our “all volunteer army” will start shooting their neighbors, so I doubt anything like the scenario will ever come to pass.
Well, yeah, “every American soldier, LEO, or agent has taken an OATH to “protect and defend the CONSTITUTION” not some tin pot dictator”, but then again, so has every elected official, congressman, senator, and president. From a factual standpoint, though, “it don’t mean squat” Please explain how these “oaths of office” have constrained all of these politico’s who routinely stomp on the constitution?
When push comes to shove, most folks will act in accordance with what they feel will be in their own best interests and/or the interests of their families. We have seen it happen in too many places to not believe it will not happen here too. Your average law abiding citizen will hold their noses and obey laws that make their stomach’s turn to keep their families safe, because they are law abiding. Criminals on the other hand are never affected by laws.
Do you REALLY think when the market has collapsed, the big cities are burning, riots are everywhere, that “those that took an oath” are really going to give a damn about their oath? The ONLY food and water a going to come from the governments. These “oathtakers” are going to be told to do as they are told and their families will go to safe zones, and be protected! Don’t do as your told and they are on their own. Now you tell me what decision would any man-woman make at that point? Their family’s safety, or refusing to go postal an rioting people, gun toting Americans, or those they don’t even know
Obama took that oath. How’s that working out?
We are our own worst enemies. This article could have been written in one paragraph. The President’s EO was a big fat nothing-burger. Nothing legally changed. The only new aspects were the mental-health reporting and the ATF pending modification of how they treat NFA trusts. Continue to buy/sell your personal collection of firearms as you always have, it’s ALL STILL LEGAL.
Now, I haven’t seen the “Executive Order” in detail… I had to laugh with all those who’d said it was unconstitutional. A Supreme Court Justice was among them. I keep telling people to look up 2 words in a legal dictionary. Encroachment & Infringement.
Under the Constitution all “Gun Control” laws are a violation of our rights. As the government has been encroaching and infringing them… Not just the 2 Amendment but all of our rights.
Most whom have studied the Constitution already know that Ben Franklin said in order to maintain our freedoms and liberty we must keep & bear arms. Tom Jefferson said that all citizens should possess in their homes weapons of war. Both firearm and sword.
One was talking about keeping your community protected during an invasion from another country. The other was talking about protecting your community protected from not just outside sources but from our own government as well.
But the law is the law everyone keeps saying… Not really. Ben Franklin said that any law which violates the Constitution is void of law and the many citizens do not have to accept it nor do the junges have to enforce it. The Supreme Court decision in 2012 repeated the very same. The problem therefore lies with in the community. It is the failure to stand together and tell the government with a clear voice that the laws passed which are void of law as they are violations of the Constitution will not be accepted be said community.
This has been another message from an American citizen.
Maybe I missed it and if what I am saying is incorrect – someone please correct me. In regard to online sales, legally you have not been able to ship a firearm through any carrier unless you are shipping to a licensed FFL dealer – ever. Going back to my days of re-chambering, customizing, and porting my guns back in the 1980s to the present. How are these sales being completed unless they are already breaking the law as it is ? The only legal way for a private citizen (non FFL holder) to purchase a firearm from another private citizen (non FFL holder) is to drive somewhere and complete the purchase. Let’s keep it simple and say the purchase is within both buyer and seller’s home state. Am I missing something ? Unless the final exchange is face to face, all of these online sales are illegal and have been forever. My concern is that I want continue to conduct a private sale without having to do a background check to me neighbor down the street for example or if I die, my sons will be able to do the same with the inventory I have left them.
AS FOR “if I die, my sons will be able to do the same with the inventory I have left them” THEY WANT TO STOP THAT TOO, MAYBE SOONER THAN YOU THINK. IN EXTREME CASES THE FEDS CAN SAY YOU WERE OLD AND SENILE AND CAN GET A COURT ORDER FROM A FRIENDLY JUDGE TO CONFISCATE YOUR GUNS AND AMMO BEFORE YOU CAN GIVE THEM TO YOUR KIDS.
Yes, I believe you ARE missing something–having bought and sold numerous firearms online (via GunBroker.com), I have always shipped a firearm I was selling to an FFL, and all that I purchased likewise had to thru an FFL dealer. So if one complies (and I expect most people do), no laws are being broken.
Don’t worry, they haven’t forgotten about you. Those are “internet” gun sales and are on the agenda to be banned entirely as soon as they get a congress that will let them ram it through. Afterall: Why do you need to buy and sell guns online when you can just go to your local dealer………Ditto for “internet ammunition sales”.
“Maybe I missed it and if what I am saying is incorrect – someone please correct me. In regard to online sales, legally you have not been able to ship a firearm through any carrier unless you are shipping to a licensed FFL dealer – ever. ”
That’s not true. Mail order sales of firearms were perfectly legal under federal law prior to the GCA 1968.
Most people have been indoctrinated to think that guns were always sold by dealers only, but as you pointed out, the very controversial GCA in 1968 is what took them out of even the Sears catalog. The murder of JFK was the first move of the oligarchs to take away the power of the people, and it went quickly downhill from there. Shortly after the GCA, Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold and the banks were granted license to print as much money as they wanted, so we could all steal our prosperity from the future.
Those are all excellent points.
Although homicide rates are currently at near record lows, we managed lower for many years in the 50’s with virtually none of our current gun laws, no background checks and mail order gun sales to private individuals. That being the case, one wonders: What good are all the laws?
I think I forgot the link for the homicide rates mentioned in the previous response.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html
So, to summarize. If you could legally buy or sell guns yesterday, the same applies today.
It’s all about power…Only way to power, is remove the instruments that can stop you… Screw Odumba’s NWO Cartel.
These actions against gun ownership and our 2nd Amendment will continue as long as the Republican party is nothing more than observers.
We need to go on the offense and ger smart.
One thing that I believe would help is if we tied the Voting Rights to Gun Rights. Make every voter fill out and pay for the same form that we do for registering a gun. Anyone unable to purchase or own a gun cannot vote. There’s plenty the Republican party can do but they sure seem awfully scared of ObamaTheTurd and his liberal socialist media.
God Bless the USA and Springfield Armory!
no shortage of tin foil hat type here,,some like Paul seem to have theirs on a little too tight,,LOL..
GOOD LUCK getting guns any gun owner these days,,everybody knows ANY government would like nothing better than to have a way to dissarm their population,,but in the times we live in,,THAT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN,,people are smarter than that,,and the government knows that any attempt at confiscation will result in a lot of their agents being shot,,,so after a while,,good luck getting agents to go on THAT detail,,,they are not stupid either,,they also suspect something is fishy when they are asked to confiscate property from ordinary citizens,,,i think if any government tried the confiscate route these days,,,the backlash would be severe, ,and the hiding of guns and ammunition would be going on everywhere,,so really THOSE guns would still be available,,and out of about 300 million guns in the US right now,,they might get lucky and get a few million,,,a far cry from disarming a population,,that and the fact they dont know where about 90% of these guns are,,make confiscation even MORE unlikely,,so stop the fear mongering,,,you’re as bad the crazy tree huggers,,and their fake global warming bullcrap…
People are not smarter than that… You’re giving them way to much credit when the lack the knowledge of the Constitution and the justifications for each law the framers created.
The error that you make is in believing that the only way to take away peoples firearms would be swat teams kicking in the doors of 100 million gun owners.
It won’t happen like that at all. It will be more like the Australian confiscation. At some point, the government will make possession illegal and use actions similar to drug laws, where if you have illegal drugs in your home, the government will confiscate your home. Then there will be an amnesty period where folks can turn in there contraband, for a pittance. Then after a period, the government will stage a few raids on homes where they know from background checks that not all have been turned in. Then they will stage a few high profile show trials where defendants will be sentenced to long prison terms, their property confiscated, and their family turned out on the streets.
After a few of those, the government will have one more amnesty period, and they will get the majority of them volunteeringly. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
For your information, Mr. Obama no longer has any authority. Only you people can give it to him. If you ignore his illegal laws, then you are no longer giving him or his domestic Terrorist / Criminal Empire filled administration any power. Obama has done nothing but ignore all the laws enacted by Congress, and the US Constitution, ignores Federal Court Orders. Well in my book that makes him the Enemy Of The People. Ignore Mr. Obama, His People, they no longer have the authority over us.
Considering Barry doesn’t have the authority to CREATE laws, especially concerning our right to bear arms, so since this would make it an unconstitutional law. How about we just don’t participate?
If Congress and/or the Judicial system don’t stop Obama, what difference does it make if his actions are un-Constitutional, or not? They will be enforced as if they are legal.
Well in this case there’s nothing from Obama to stop since his EO just regurgitates existing federal law that’s been on the books for decades. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C) defines what it means to be “engaged in the business” of selling firearms and spells out the exceptions in perfectly clear terms:
“(21)(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;”
That’s the law and Obama’s EOs can’t modify it, expand it, or nullify any part of it no matter how much he may wish they could.
That muslim cunt aka Barry doesn’t care about this country nor the constitution. . .he is a sleeper terrorist hell bent on ruining this once great nation.
You are half right. POTUS cannot make laws but they can make executive orders which only last until their Presidency is up and that is 100% constitutional. The next President has right to keep said executive orders or nullify them. George W. Bush did the exact same thing while he was in office, create executive orders.
If you’re going to comment about the Constitution and law, please know what you’re talking about.
How can you say that the ATF knows what guns you are getting because we (FFL licensee) are giving it to them? In your position in the industry you should very well know better. Please for heaven’s sake if you don’t then go to a local firearms dealer in any state that follows the federal law (not their own like California) and observe the 4473 form and background check process. I’m sure they will allow you to, I know I would. We do not transmit electronically or any other way to the ATF what firearms you are getting with the exception of multiple pistol purchase or what they term “multiple disposition of certain rifles” to include rifles capable of semi auto fire with detachable magazine larger than .22 caliber. If you don’t want one of those forms on you then don’t buy them from the same business within a 5 business day period. In short, your statement was very ignorant and furthering rumors like this is just bad form. You should be most interested in dispelling untruths about our industry for the betterment all around.
Please don’t cloud this discussion with the truth, it only confuses them.
Additionally it is my understanding that it is the FBI that gets this information and by law it can only retain these records for 6 months. Believe it or not it is illegal for the Federal government to compile a registry of gun ownership, if they were you can bet some politician or journalist looking to make a name for themselves would have uncovered this plot long ago. They may retain some information longer for internal auditing purposes and of course for cases under investigation. I believe some states have laws that permit them to retain certain backround check information.
Bob Bowden, REMEMBER NSA AND Edward Snowden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden AND THE NEW UTAH NSA COMPUTER FACILITY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center CHECK-IT-OUT!! DO YOU STILL BELIEVE WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE??
Thank you Chris! I about crapped my pants when he wrote that the Government has our 4473’s! ALL 4473 forms remain at the FFL dealer site. I keep them in a safe. There is no transferring to the government. The ATF can only inspect them for an audit. For God’s sake, the government does not know what firearms you have!
Yes they do Randy. And when you close on the next round of restrictions or inspections, yours will be digitized as well.
No they don’t. We have close to 12 years worth of 4473’s here in boxes. Only the last 2 years worth is easy for us to search but we can get any form we need within 24/hours. Those records will be with is for at least 20 years. Yes eventually they will go to some storage facilities maintained by the BATFE but what good are they? How many of those buyers will still have those guns and live in the same house or even state for that matter? Its useless information if you wanted to confiscate guns from people.
I bought my first pistol 30 years ago in a state 1500 miles away. I don’t know who I sold it to anymore and don’t care. I doubt that person still has it either. After that long those guns are as good as scattered into the wind.
They have all the records from every dealer who has gone out of business. Each NICS transaction also has a unique number so, IF the NICS data is not securely deleted they would be able to match it to your 4473s would they not? Ultimately it doesn’t matter. All that’s needed is a new federal law requiring all dealer records including but not limited to 4473s to be turned over to ATF and the creation of a database from said information authorized. It just takes enough votes in one congressional session and a president. All the information needed to create a large gun owner database already exists in dealer records. They just need to be compiled and indexed. That would be a cumbersome process but with the right OCR and other software not impossible by any stretch.
True, but if congress passed a law requiring you to forward this information to the batf you would have to obey it, correct?
If and that’s a big if Congress passed a law then yes. However as it stands right now the law says that there can be no federal gun database. In reality I don’t see that going away.
I know here in FL when we run a background check using the electronic system that we are using the same system that the person uses when we used to call them in. The info transmitted is name, birthdate, state you were born in, handgun, longgun, both or other, (not type or serial) state of residence, sex, race, country of residence. That’s it. After 72 hours your name is gone from the system. We can search for a transaction number or dates and response from them but not by name after 72 hours. That’s not to say that somewhere deep in the system it couldn’t be done but then again what’s the use. They would know you purchased a firearm but they don’t know what it was or the serial number without the 4473 and we have that.
Now of you buy more than 2 handguns at a time or within 5 days the sheriff and the ATF gets all the info including gun type, caliber, maker, serial etc along with all your personal info. Also of your gun turns up at a crime scene the ATF tracing center calls for a copy of the 4473 and we have to fax a copy to them. This is after they have called the manufacturer who gave them the distributor who gives them the dealer. If they were really keeping any kind of database of who had what would they need to do that?
NOT TO BE PICKY, BUT “you buy more than 2 handguns at a time or within 5 days” IS NOT CORRECT, IT STARTS AT THE 2ND HAND GUN “you buy 2 OR more handguns at a time or within 5 days”. A LITTLE TRICKY.
“If you don’t want one of those forms on you then don’t buy them from the same business within a 5 business day period. ”
Give them a little time. Soon that will be “structuring” of firearm purchases and a federal crime, the same way it is to split cash bank deposits up to avoid triggering the $10K thresh hold IRS notification now.
Also, while you may not typically transmit the firearm information, each NICS transaction has a unique transaction number and includes all the personal identifiers of the buyer so if the information is really not destroyed or not destroyed so it cannot be recovered, all they have to do is come to you for the information on the 4473 associated with the NICS transaction in question. Just one more step to the same end result.
Paul…take a break brother. There are no black helicopters, your conspiracy theories are unjustified. Over the past year or so I have read these posts on GunsAmerica. Now I am going to have to stick with the other sites (Not ARFCOM) for reasonable information where Govt. Agents are not watching people, where others understand our “liberty” is not threatened (It’s my day off…and the last time I checked if I want to jump in the car and travel wherever in the USA …I can do it). As a matter of fact, I do believe those are “contrails” in the sky, not a conspiracy for global warming. I’ll stick to the gun ads.
My IP is: 97.83.248.124 and I am a moderate surrounded by progressive liberal insanity.
Posting your IP address in a public forum is like handing out your home address with a few keystrokes anyone can have your address. & phone number
Address . ***** ********urt Dr.
City. St. Louis
StateProv. MO
PostalCode. 63131
Country. US
Not smart.
The address that comes up from an ip lookup is not the users address. It is the address of the isp to which that ip block is assigned. The only way you can get the actual users address, name etc is.
1. Access the ISPs confidential records.
2. Correlate the information from other online posts, emails etc where the ip is available and where the author has either provided the information you are seeking himself or provided enough other information for you to get it. That is not foolproof however because most ip’s are dynamic not static and are used at various times by numerous individuals. If I reboot my DSL modem for example I get a new ip address and my old one becomes available in the ip pool for another user to use.
Virtually every website you go to logs your ip address. That in and of itself does not give them your name address etc.
Meanwhile if you are anything like the average middle class working American, you are working 1/3 of the year just to pay taxes which are then redistributed largely as welfare and crony capitalism to well healed political donors. Your liberty is largely already gone. You are just in denial.
correct me if am wrong , but the population in america are about 300 million plus ??? and the number of gun owners ( legally purchase)are about close to that ?? correct!??.my point is vehicular accident or intentional are more higher than firearms related deaths( crime,suicide,etc..) illegal drug overdose is still high , whatelse??!, hmnn ,
here where am at temporary , gun owners or gun clubs and others think that someone makes them look bad to the eyes of ameriguy.like a fall guy tinge.well that really is a kind of low blow.blame one to make the rest who own guns be look good and the bad kind of thing.that is one lame excuses.also do u know that majority of truckers are hypocrite when it comes to firearms..oh also one thing like a family member would intentionally use gun issues that one or two of his/her relative making firearms owner look bad.therfor using this to gain self steam.even he or she also a gunowner ,hmmnn. the fall guy approach not really a good idea.coz when anti gun people brands say something about guns !!! , it really means all gun owners not just one who did something or made up as a fall guy..so people in pro 2nd including me must stop making loud outburst of mental this mental that or taking illegal grug this and that.or he/ she did shooting becoz mental this/that..actually legal gun owners and ffl dealers and gun clubs already began what the anti gun people wants.always giving compromise in every laws..60℅ americans agree with that law this law, background this/ that , compromise again ,i mean when do gun owners see the bigger picture the more compromise the more u give up something.stop blame game.stop pointing fingers whos fault it is !! i look at most comments in every article..almost all comment are about blame this / that.coz that is exactly what these anti 2nd and hypocrites want..let the pro2nd destroy each other by using blame game or fall guy scenario..when a law gets drafted and submitted and debated and eventually pass and sign into law , its not just one or two or three etc.. that are affected by it..its the whole pro2nd people ,dont matter what level of stature in society ,everyone !! all pro 2nd are affected by this unreasonable laws..by writting this am going to be a target again by people who are closeby where i am staying temp..yup !! again the fall guy or villain pointing tinge..amen to that..
What did you say? I’ve heard drunks make a clearer statement.
?
I’m a dealer also, when processing the 4473 no serial numbers are sent, no copies are provided to anyone, during an audit they must have a court order to scan a copy. I and only I have copies of the 4473. As a dealer in Pa I am required to submit to the state police a copy of your form for hand gun purchase not the 4473 unless you are denied then I must by law send all information and it goes from me to the state police , understand if someone is denied they probably shouldn’t be.trying to buy a gun in the first place. Stop fearon mongering and concentrate on the issue of tge 2016 gun ban HR4269 remember the 2nd amendment said right to bear arms it doesn’t say right to bare muskets .
Not true in Tennessee. When processing a transfer the 4473 is filled out which is full of applicant’s private information and has a record of the firearm’s serial number. Also, the State of Tennessee requires that same information either verbally over the phone, or entered into their web database. During an audit / inspection federal or state agents can look through your 4473 documents and make copies or notes as they please. If a purchaser makes multiple purchases of firearms that information is collected and sent to local law enforcement. Once a dealer is out of business 4473 records from the previous 20 years must be sent to the licensing agency. No fear mongering, just the facts. The fact is that government keeps track of firearms in this country.
I LIVED IN PA FOR 60 YEARS, NEVER BOUGHT A GUN THROUGH A DEALER. HAVE TO TRUST YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT ANOTHER FORM SENT TO STATE POLICE. IT SEEMS TO BE A SECRET FORM AS NOTED BELOW WHEN I CHECKED. THEY EVEN WANT FORM REQUESTS RECORDED. SEE BELOW:
“Application/Record of Sale Form (SP4-113)
This form will be provided by the Pennsylvania State Police and all requests for this form must be submitted in writing. You can fax your requests to (717) 772-4249 or mail requests to Firearm Records Unit, Pennsylvania State Police, 1800 Elmerton Avenue, Harrisburg, PA 17110. Note the pre-printed numbers on this form are assigned to your dealership. Therefore, you cannot loan copies to other dealers or duplicate this form. Please allow several weeks for the processing of your order. This form is not available online.” WHAT’S UP WITH PENNSYLVANIA?????
HERE IS A LITTLE KNOWN NOTE THAT I JUST FOUND AS TO ATF FORM 4473. “The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required “bound-book”. A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business.”
IT’S FROM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473 SO THINK AS YOU WILL.
You are correct about going out of business. However, my FFL will be transferred to another party when I die. That means absolutely none of the 4473’s have left my safe. We will all be long gone before the ATF sees what is in my safe.
THANKS FOR ENLIGHTENING ME. HERE ARE SOME SITES TO NAVIGATE FOR SOME MORE LEGAL INFO:
http://smartgunlaws.org/maintaining-gun-sales-background-check-records-policy-summary/
http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-retention-of-gun-records/
I HOPE THIS HELPS EVERYONE!
So, out of curiosity, if your records are destroyed through no obvious fault of your own, prior to the expiration of the retention period, by fire, flood, whatever, what happens? Are you in violation for not having backups or bullet proof storage or is there an exception? For example your location is completely obliterated by a tornado. Nothing left. No building. No records and no advanced warning for you to have moved anything off sight. How does the ATF handle that?
We serialize our 4473’s with a unique number. The bound books have this number in the disposition area. Only the number. You would have to go through the 4473’s to pull the actual info about the gun. Its easy for us to do but by itself the book is useless.
One time i bought 8 guns for Christmas presents for friends and family. What does this law do if i want to buy guns for gifts. Does anyone out there know? thx Greg
It was already sketchy giving guns as gifts because of the aggressive “straw purchase” program supported by the NSSF. You are better to get gift certificates and have them go do their own 4473.
There is nothing sketchy about it. Sketchy implies that it “might” be wrong. It is absolutely against the law to buy guns for a friend and only family in certain cases can be permissible.
It’s only against the law to buy a gun for someone who asks you to stand in for them to avoid the background check.
A “straw purchase” means the end user selected the gun and provided the money while the “straw man” stands in for the background check. THAT is illegal.
Purchasing a gift for someone who did not select the firearm, did not provide the funds for a firearm, and would have passed a background check on their own, is still legal in most states.
Wrong. It is not illegally to buy a gun for another person as a gift under federal law. It is illegal to take money from another person and go buy the gun for them.
Example A: You buy, with your money, a firearm for your friend Joe and give it to him as a birthday gift. As long as no state law prohibits this and as long as you have no reason to believe Joe is a prohibited person this is 100% legal under federal law.
Example B: Joe gives you money and asks you to go buy a gun for him with the money. That’s a straw purchase which is illegal. It’s also a straw purchase if Joe asks you to go buy the gun for him and then pays you back for it.
Example C: You go buy a gun which you have no intention or interested in other than resale. You then resell it for a profit. You are engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license which is illegal under federal law.
MY FIRST BUY I ORDERED 2 GLOCKS ONLINE FROM “GLOCKMEISTER” ON ONE ORDER TO SAVE ON SHIPPING BUT MY RECEIVING FFL (A NON-GLOCK DEALER) NEVER TOLD ME THAT THE 4473 WOULD BE FORWARDED TO LOCAL AND FEDERAL AUTHORITIES EVEN THOUGH THE GLOCKS WERE RECEIVED BY HIM 4 DAYS APART. MY BAD. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN AGAIN
JEZ, I WAS WRONG AGAIN, THE FFL HAS TO SEND AN ATF FORM “Form 3310.4 or Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers” TO THE FEDS, THE LOCALS, AND KEEP A COPY OF HIS OWN.. ANYWAY AN ATF FORM IS FORWARDED.
That is going to happen so many times that a single instance other than for a ridiculously large number of guns is not going to raise any flags. My guess is that they enter these transactions into a computer system and the computer system then looks for matches where a single buyer is completing such transactions repeatedly. That’s how I would do it. If it were my system it would also look for repeated purchases of the same popular model of handguns i.e. multiple purchases by the same person of Glock 17s. Maybe you really do need 6 Glock 17s or maybe you are reselling them.
The earth is billions of years old. She has endured many changes. The thing that we humans forget or refuse to face is that WE are not the ‘End All’ of all things. Mother Nature falls ill sometimes and then Heals Herself. The earth has been healing itself for millennium and will continue to do so. The fact that geoengineeringwatch.org, who I never heard of before your columns, seems to by your only source makes me skeptical.
I’m 73 years old and have been carrying a firearm, of one kind or another, for over 60 years. I’ve spent at least half of those 73 years in the wild, interacting with nature at its best and at its worst. I have more trust and belief in Mother Nature than I do in 99.9% of humans.
It pains me to see a well written article on gun rights be hijacked by environmental ‘porn’. We humans are NOT the peak of the pyramid. The earth will be alive and thriving LONG after we humans are no longer around, no matter what we do.
Maybe if you read a little more and talk a little less you’ll get it Clif. I link to there because Dane is the only person I know covering this topic who has thoroughly researched it. But it isn’t like one guy telling you his theory. He links to patents, congressional documents, and other verifiable data for most of the points he makes. Dane says repeatedly in all the things he covers, go check it out for yourself. The science is there, as I’ve explained before. The government has printed booklets on Solar Radiation Management, yet people like you say that you are skeptical. Wake up Clif. Your generation is the one that fell asleep and believed that bankers and politicians could be trusted. My generation, and subsequent generations, are trying to get us out of this mess.
Paul. you might want follow your own advice and read Clif’s comment. He was merely stating that man can destroy himself ,but nature would be just fine without us. Nice touch at the end, blaming my generation for all the problems in the world. We built a strong economy with a solid middle class. We knew our reps and made sure they knew our views. And they truly represented us. Scapegoating is weakness. Apathy is your generations biggest problem.
Word, John L. Apparently our generation can also be succinct.
Rather than start a pointless argument (ie: a war of words with an unarmed person) I will just say that you, sir, are sadly mistaken and base your comment and beliefs on many false premises. Most disturbing is the notion that because the government printed something it is gospel. Although not quite as old as Clif (but close) I feel the biggest problem IS your generation, with the “me” mentality and penchant for instant gratification. Your generation and subsequent generations will be dealing with the mindless spending excesses and increasing descent to socialism that you have demanded from government. I wish you well.
When what you claim is going to happen, happens, both you and I, and any descendants, will long be dust. Therefore, I just don’t really care. “Save the whales, collect the whole set”. “Clear-cut earth now, we can cut the other planets later.”
OK, here seems to be the difference. When I was first taught how to research a solution to something, something I was told or wondered about, I started with an open mind and tried to keep it throughout the process. I did not start with a preconceived notion and discard that which countered my notion. I looked at everything and chose that which was more plausible. Researchers now days, seem to be just like pollsters. They start off with what they want to find and then ask questions that are tailored to fit that search. When you attempt to predict the future, you should be guided by:
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
4. For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.
Arthur C. Clark “Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination”, in Profiles of the Future (New Edition 1992)
You lose all credibility with this stuff and with that insanity about Sandy Hook. It drowns out all your valid points and frankly makes gun owners look like nuts. Some gun control proponent has probably already linked to it to ridicule gun owners at large. If I were one you can bet I would.
Well said Cliff! The environment, “truthers”, “birthers” (amazing how Ted Cruz is now the victim of it), and the conspiracy theories over Sandy Hook are over the top.
As noted, this latest executive order didn’t really do anything to affect most people. It was mainly done just so it would look like SOMETHING was being done. There are a lot of people who feel safer now because doing something was better than doing nothing… no matter if it had little impact on most of the issues they are concerned about. I wasn’t too concerned when it was announced that an executive order was coming, since that announcement also said Obama was consulting with the DOJ to see what he could legally do… not much without going through congress, especially when it affects something in the Constitution.
JUST REMEMBER THAT ALTHOUGH THE PRESIDENT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO CHANGE “Constitutional” LAWS HE CAN INFLUENCE CHANGES IN “REGULATIONS” AT THE POWERFUL “ATF” WITHOUT CONGRESS AND PROBABLY ON THE ‘LOW DOWN”.
Remember that no executive order or policy can circumvent the Constitution or established Federal law. Like what Frank said, this was purely a political move to show his base that he’s trying to do something but LEGALLY he cannot make any effective change w/o Congress. Ergo, if President Obama instructs the ATF to do something that is against Federal law or the Constitution than both the Legislative and Congress branches would be all over him. There is a reason why our Government has checks and balances so no one single branch of the Government can take over.
Thank you, Paul. I think your vision of the future is pretty accurate. Somewhere in our federal system, there is at least one list of names of everyone who has bought a gun and/or joined Concealedcarry.org or joined a local state gun rights organization or ___ fill in your own blank. I’m also sure that almost every reader of your article owns or has sold at least one gun that didn’t go through the FFL system. I also agree that the system is trying to get a handle on legitimate drug users which can be cross referenced as needed. My job is to be prepared for TEOTWAWKI. Being a responsible gun and ammunition owner is simply one part of that puzzle.
CRAZY, YOU WOULD HAVE BUILT A BOMB SHELTER IN THE 50’S AND 60’S. NUTTY!
A bomb shelter is kind of a waste, but a fallout shelter everyone should have at this point. Ever heard of Fukushima? It doesn’t take much for those nuke plants to get angry, and what’s coming is going to be substantially more than much.
FOX NEWS ACTUALLY TELLS MORE TRUTH ABOUT ATTEMPTED GUN CONTROL THAN THE BIG 3, ABC, NBC AND CBS. WHY DO YOU SINGLE OUT FOX. AND YES ANYONE THAT HAS BOUGHT A GUN AT A DEALER OR LEGIT ONLINE HAS TO FILL OUT THE FORM. AND ANY GUN BUYER WITH A BRAIN KNOWS THAT THE FEDS HAVE AND KEEP THOSE RECORDS FOREVER, “NSA” REMEMBER! THE FEDS SUPER COMPUTERS CAN HOLD AND TRACK MORE DATA THAN ANYONE COULD IMAGINE. CHECK OUT AND REMEMBER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center AMAZING, AND THIS IS WHAT THE OBAMA FRIENDLY “NEW YORK DAILY NEWS” HAS PUBLIHSED http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nsa-center-utah-plagued-eletrical-issues-article-1.1479845 LET’S NEVER BELIEVE THESE LIBERAL RATS.
The right/left paradigm is just keeping you ignorant. Fox news got traction with all of us freedom loving Americans because it plugged into things like gun rights that we knew were core American values, but Fox is in the tank for the global elite power structure just as much as any of the others. They are all owned by a handful of people. Fox is there to give you something to point your finger at and say yea they are on my team, while they convince you to send young Americans off to die in wars for which we have no justification.
PAUL, DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK THAT ABC, NBC AND CBS WOULD EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ANTI-GUN CONTROL IF THERE WAS NO FOX NEWS? YES I BELIEVE THAT ABC, NBC AND CBS ARE TOOLS OF THE LIBERALS. HOW ABOUT THE REST OF YOU GUN OWNERS?
That’s the problem Charlie. Freedom loving Americans had no voice before Fox, so the oligarchs created a quasi-news agency to make us think we had one. That voice has molded the “conservative” American to the goals of the oligarchs, which is endless war that decimates innocent people, and chrony capitalism that has eviscerated the middle class. Do you have kids with college degrees, even masters degrees Charlie? Are they working at a cell phone store? You have been trapped into a right/left way of thinking where everything that “your people” say must be true, while “your people” are in the same pocket as the “liberals,” doing their bidding while we lose any chance of a future.
WOW PAUL, GETTING PERSONAL NOW!? ABOUT MY KIDS AND GRAND-KIDS? MY KIDS, 3. ONE HAS 4 YEAR COLLEGE NURSING DEGREE AND HAS BIRTHED MANY BABIES BEFORE THE DOCTOR COULD ARRIVE ON A SATURDAY NIGHT, MY OTHER DAUGHTER GOT THROUGH A 2 YEAR COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND IS A REP ORG OFFICE MANAGER, MY SON STARTED HIS OWN SUCCESSFUL PAINTING BUSINESS. AS FOR MY GRAND-KIDS, 8 OF THEM. 2 MAJOR UNIVERSITY ENGINEERING GRADUATES WORKING FULL TIME IN THEIR FIELD OF STUDY, AND THEIR SISTER IS A 4 YEAR COLLEGE GRADUATE NURSING DEGREE WORKING IN CALIF. MY HIGHEST DEGREED GRAND-CHILD HAS A MASTERS IN EDUCATION AND IS THE HEAD ADMINISTRATOR IN A SMALL PRIVATE SCHOOL. HER YOUNGER BROTHER WENT TO A TECHNICAL SCHOOL AFTER HIGH SCHOOL AND NOW OWNS AN AUTO SALES AND REPAIR COMPANY AND IS MAKING MORE MONEY YEARLY THAN BOTH GRADUATE ENGINEERS. MY OTHER 3 GRAND-KIDS ARE STILL ATTENDING COLLEGE AND HIGH SCHOOL. AND GUESS WHAT, MY KIDS VOTED FOR OBAMA THE FIRST TIME, BUT I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND TIME, I DIDN’T ASK. NOW IT’S YOUR TURN TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION TO ME YOURSELF.
That’s great Charlie. That they are working and not living with you is becoming rare these days. But it is no surprise that your service sector grandchild is making more than the engineers. There are millions of people with six figures in college debt and advanced degrees, including what was considered the highest pinnacle of education, engineering, who can’t even get a job. When they do it is twice as many hours for half as much pay.
That’s great Charlie. That they are working and not living with you is becoming rare these days. But it is no surprise that your service sector grandchild is making more than the engineers. There are millions of people with six figures in college debt and advanced degrees, including what was considered the highest pinnacle of education, engineering, who can’t even get a job. When they do it is twice as many hours for half as much pay.
REPLY TO THIS ABOVE PAUL STATEMENT:
ANY COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY GRADUATE (EVEN IF MAJOR WAS “BASKET WEAVING”) THAT IS NOT WORKING AT SOMETHING, ANYTHING IS A RESULT OF BAD PARENTING. PARENTS THAT ALLOW THEIR GRADUATE CHILDREN TO LOUNGE AROUND AFTER GRADUATION ARE GUILTY OF CODDLING THEIR LITTLE 20 SOMETHING BRATS, PROBABLY ALL THEIR 20 SOMETHING YEARS OF LIFE.
If that is the case then Fox News should unleash it’s hard hitting journalistic skills to uncover this illegal action by the Federal government, someone would be up for a Pulitzer doing so.
Might actually watch Fox News, Bob. You would have heard a continuous stream of Constitutional scholars and political pundits being interviewed on the news segments, and participating in discussions on the opinion shows … all explaining in depth why Obama’s pen and phone fiats are un-Constitutional. The most agreed-upon analogy is “banana republic.”
For many patriots, they buy their guns for fear of a tyrannical govt. Apparently never realizing this is the same govt doing your background check when u go to buy a gun.
Not only that. They determine the pass/fail criteria of said background check.
So you are asking the govts permission, everytime you buy a firearm.
And for now, they oblige.
But the criteria will tighten.
And the debate will then not just be over gun ownership, but, what defines ‘mentally ill’ or ‘domestic abuser’.
ATF DOES NOT HAVE COPIES OF YOUR 4473,,,,,, The ONLY time they get a copy as well as your local police dept. is when an individual buys more than one handgun in 5 days. Basically this means from the SAME gun shop since gun shops have no way of knowing what you do outside their shop. 4473 forms are NEVER seen by anyone unless ATF does an audit on your shop and then they are looking for mistakes, they are by NO MEANS recording them. The ONLY time they ever see the light of day other than that is when ATF calls for a trace on a serial number (not often). The so called “digital 4473” is only a PDF app for your printer to be able to print a 4473 form without all the handwriting that can be hard to read, it ALSO eliminates mistakes by the gun shop. The computer DOES NOT NEED TO BE ONLINE for this to work,,,,,, So,,,, STOP TELLING LIES ON THESE PAGES and FREAKING people out for no reason
You are a tiny gunshop and you don’t know what happens when a large gunshop is audited. All of the records are now being scanned and digitized. Also, all of the gun shops that close and people who give up their FFL turn in their records to the ATF, and they also digitize those. Very few 4473s are not digitized and saved these days. With handwriting recognition software it is very easy to make these into useable and actionable data.
All dealers are audited in the same manner large or small, they must have a court order to digitize , scan or copy in any form. ssn’s are optional if you don’t want to provide it then don’t. Again no make model or serial numbers are given . Those of you who are not dealers should not pretend to know the process.
Bri: You’re absolutely wrong about ATF needing a court order to copy your records – which include the serial number. All the ATF IOI has to do is pull out his digital camera and copy your A&D book. You won’t know it unless you watch them all the time. This is not speculation – they did it to me. All dealers are NOT audited the same. If you show up on the list of high number of traces, you will be audited more closely.
HOW LONG, AS A SMALL GUN DEALER (FFL), ARE YOU REQUIRED TO KEEP THESE “4473” FED FORMS? REMEMBER THE FEDS CAN GET A “PRESIDENTIAL DECREE” TO MANDATE THESE FORMS TO TURNED OVER TO THE FEDS.
ALSO REMEMBER WHEN YOUR DEALER (AT LEAST IN FLORIDA) CALLS IN THE REQUEST FOR AN INSTANT BACKGROUND CHECK THE CHECKING AUTHORITY (FLORIDA STATE POLICE, PROBABLY FEDERALLY FUNDED) REQUIRES THE REQUESTING DEALER TO VERBALLY GIVE ALL INFO ON THE 4473 FORM OVER THE PHONE, PROBABLY RECORDED, INCLUDING MAKE, MODEL AND SERIAL NUMBER OF THE GUN.
Not in my experience in Florida, no. But I haven’t picked up a gun for about a month so that may have changed. They do read your SS# over the phone to them though. I have to pick up guns next week so we’ll see.
PAUL, I SIT THERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY SMALL FFL AND LISTEN TO HIM GIVING MY INFO TO THE STATE POLICE. ALSO YOUR SS NUMBER IS A DOUBLE CHECK ON YOUR IDENTITY AND I DON’T REMEMBER THAT BEING MANDATORY. SEE https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-forms CLICK SECOND BOX DOWN. NOTE SS# “OPTIONAL”.
Well I guess we’ll see when I pick up the next gun. I’ve never heard them say a gun serial number, not that it matters.
Not true. Listen carefully when your next background check is conducted. The only question regarding the firearm itself is if is a Pistol or a Rifle. No serial number, no make and model, no caliber.
YOU ARE PROBABLY CORRECT BECAUSE IT’S BEEN SINCE EARLY 2013 JUST BEFORE OBAMA’S 2ND TERM INAUGURATION.
I’m a FFL in Florida. We DO NOT give the gun make, model, or serial number to the FDLE when we call in a background check. We only state that’s its a handgun or longgun or both.
Thanks for confirming that. This has been my experience.
Gunshop, if you think the gov’t is true to their word, bless your little heart. They don’t need your form 4473 is because when you call in a background check, it is logged. This is a fact….when you get approved for a certain gun, a pistol, and once the approval is finalized and you’ve hung up the phone, try changing your mind and put the pistol back to get a rifle instead. You will have to resubmit a check. But you were cleared 5 minutes ago, why do another? Because they are keeping a list specifically by serial number.
Mongo – As a small FFL I can tell you that in running a standard NICS check the only firearm information needed for the Federal check is Rifle, Handgun, or Other. This is true whether it is a phone call or by using the on-line version of NICS. Perhaps some states that put their own system between the dealer the NICS ask for additional information – but is it NOT a Federal requirement. BTW for most transactions, the on-line NICS has a “proceed” response with one minute. Proceed is the authority to complete the sale. Some transactions take longer – typically if there is any information in the buyers file that requires a human to evaluate.
Even better in states that allow it such as South Carolina, presenting a current Concealed Weapons Permit substitutes for running a NICS check – as that individual has a CWP that certifies he (or she) has passed a more comprehensive “background check” to obtain that permit.
It is true that the detailed firearm information is on the 4473 form. And perhaps some of the high volume dealers do digitize that and make it available to the BATF. – we small guys just keep the paper copies – for 20 years as required by BATF. From my experience when BATF audits my records there is no copying or information recording done – just a visual review to assure that the forms are properly completed and that my records are in order.
This has always been my understanding, the Feds are not allowed by law to compile a database of firearm owners via scanning the 4473s. If this has changed for larger gun shops, Mr. Helsinki, please give us some proof rather than anecdotal evidence. If you are correct sir, then the gun shops have been complicit in a crime or at the least a conspiracy. With all due respect to you Mr. Helinski.
Charlie:
By law, ATF isn’t allowed to compile a gun owner database – but they do. They don’t need to scan 4473s. They scan (or photograph) the A&D book and run all the guns through eTrace – as if they were “crime guns”. That creates a defacto registration of each of those guns which never goes away. It has nothing to do with “larger shops”. Doubt what I say? Look it up. There’s a good explanation on Wikipedia under eTrace.
Why is it sill a problem for people to read the shipping info from a reliable outfit like Cabelas or CheaperThanDirt and there is plenty of into on how to do that. Legitimate buyers and sellers can do pretty much any gun transaction online as long as each end of the transaction is done through a licensed (FFL) agent,
I BELIEVE THE FEDS “clandestinely” RECORD AND KEEP ALL GUN SALES RECORDS, BEWARE!
As a seller, there is no requirement to ship from an FFL as long as you ship to an FFL. I normally include a copy of my drivers license with the “ship to” FFL.
On the other end, watch as they increase what crimes cause you to lose your gun rights. That is the only way to effectively disarm people without targeting a group that may resist. Soon, jaywalking will cause you to lose your rights.
I disagree that the planet is dying. These statistics are a fraud to push for a global carbon tax, shut down industrialization, erase property rights, and redistribute YOUR wealth. Look up Lord Christopher Moncton’s presentations on YouTube for the real climate data the IPCC doesn’t want you to see (too much for this post). The polar bears are fine, so are the penguins. The polar ice caps are larger than ever: IMO our climate is being tampered with at least in part to support the fake narrative. Skeptics are labeled “climate deniers” – that smells in and of itself; that they’re telling you the debate is closed and the science is “settled” when it’s not. The old communism was red. The new communism is “Green” – and environmentalism is their new stalking horse. The entire green movement has been highjacked by fist-pumping university crackpots and Marxist professors. Believe them at your peril.
No, if you read into the data at Geoengineeringwatch.org, you will see that the carbon tax system was just another scam to make money off of the problem. The polar cap is larger because they can nucleate the surface, but the thick ice in the arctic is now almost gone. The “green” movement is made up of a bunch of scammers who, like you, are too lazy to read the actual science, because the planet is far worse than they are willing to admit, mostly because the Ford and Rockefella Foundations fund the organizations.
All you really have to do is look up if you are interested in being curious. The jet engines of today are nothing more than turbo fans, and it is nearly impossible for them to make any con-trail at all, let alone one that lasts all afternoon and turns into a murky haze. You are being sprayed like a bug, as part of a top secret “Solar Radiation Management” program, trying to reflect the sun back into space.
You know what is funny, to those of you reading this comment. These critical comments always come during the wee hours of the morning on Monday or Friday when the Digest flies, and when I look up the IP address, in this case 24.239.136.117 from Al, it traceroutes back to either New York city or Langley Virginia. Isn’t that odd.
Agreed
Obviously paul is part of the Weapon of Mass Distraction. Maybe someday he will consider coming forward and admit that he’s just another part of the disinformation campaign to keep you spinning around so fast the money flies out of your pockets. I always like the first part of his articles and then enjoy watching it devolve towards the end. Then I always check the comments for when he starts insulting his readers. Just like gore or limbaugh, he is certain that anyone who doesn’t agree with his every rant is a moron, a dupe, or part of the evil enemy.
But he’s entertaining, so I’ll keep giving him the clicks that keep him employed.
It’s a conscience thing Chas. As of this morning, over 15k people have clicked this article just from the Digest. Yahoo News also linked to it, and interviewed me. I couldn’t live with myself if when it all collapses I didn’t at least use the comparatively tiny little voice I have. And yes, I do believe you spend all of that pittance in your pocket on non-perishable food so you can ride out the wave of awareness that will eventually come. There is going to be end of the world pandemonium for a while.
Agreed with AI