The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the BATFE or ATF, recently reclassified the Honey Badger Pistol as a short-barreled rifle, or SBR, and issued a cease and desist to Q, the company that makes it.
No formal reason was included with the initial letter sent on August 3, leaving gun owners and gun manufacturers alike confused and understandably angry. And now the gun industry is pushing back.
“The Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division examined the Honey Badger Pistol manufactured and marketed by Q, LLC and determined the firearm is a short-barreled rifle as defined under the NFA,” wrote the ATF.
“A short-barreled rifle is subject to the registration, transfer, taxation and possession restrictions regarding these regulated firearms, which include criminal penalties,” the ATF continued.
Responses from the industry:
“Q is seeking solutions that best protect you, the individual, and Q’s distribution network from falling out of compliance with ATF regulations, and federal law,” said Q in a statement. “At this time, Q has not received any definitive guidance from the ATF.”
“This arbitrary approach is creating confusion and uncertainty for millions of law-abiding citizens, manufacturers, retailers, and wholesalers,” said SB Tactical. “SB Tactical is the inventor of the Pistol Stabilizing Brace and is deeply committed to our customers, the Second Amendment, and the rule of law. The ATF’s approach is unfair and unlawful.”
“SB Tactical will, undoubtedly and unwaveringly, continue to support Q, LLC. We are tirelessly working with congressional leadership, the White House, and the Department of Justice to ensure that legal gun owners’ rights and the rights of manufacturers are not in jeopardy. It is our hope that the ATF’s latest policy interpretations, politically motivated or not, are corrected and that the confusion created can be reversed.”
“We are disappointed to learn the ATF has been allowed to continue to target small businesses and put millions of firearms owners in danger of federal prosecution,” said the Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition, or FRAC.
“We strongly disagree with this arbitrary, inequitable, and poorly advised determination which was carried out in a completely non-transparent and hostile manner,” they added.
“[The] ATF has once again unlawfully and unconstitutionally exceeded its authority and changed the law by issuing a new determination that is devoid of logic and reason, contains no explanation as to the manner in which it arrived at its conclusion, conflicts with its prior determinations, and embodies the very essence of ‘arbitrary and capricious’,” said the Firearms Policy Coalition, or FPC.
“There can be no question that our Constitution requires accountability to coincide with the enactment of laws, and that those laws must be within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not left to bureaucrats who escape all aspects of responsibility,” the FPC continued. “Once more, we remind ATF and the executive branch that their authority has limits and that, if need be, they will once again be reminded of those limits through legal action.”
“Once again, gun owners, manufacturers, and dealers are subject to the whims of the anti-gun bureaucrats who run the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives,” said the Gun Owners of America, or GOA.
“The latest outrage is that they have reclassified Q, LLC’s Honey Badger Pistol as a short barrel rifle subject to regulation under the provisions of the National Firearms Act including a $200 transfer tax.”
“Pistol braces have been a source of confusion for ATF for several years,” continues the GOA. “[The] ATF said that if a shooter used a brace as a stock, then the firearm would become an SBR. They later retreated from that position. This is but one of the many reasons why GOA is pushing to repeal not just part of but all of the NFA.”
See Also: Lawmakers Send Letter to ATF to Stop Secret Rules Restricting Pistol Braces
The Honey Badger Pistol, like many other AR, AK and other “large-format” pistols, comes standard with a pistol brace, not a rifle stock. This, in conjunction with other features, can prevent the ATF from classifying the gun as an SBR, meaning it is not regulated under the National Firearms Act, or NFA.
In addition to local, state and federal restrictions, NFA firearms are tightly regulated and require an additional tax stamp to make or transfer. The costs and restrictions associated with SBRs are often frustrating and for some, outright prohibit the possibility of owning these rifles.
Pistol versions of these guns — like the Honey Badger Pistol, at least, formerly — don’t have these restrictions. While they typically don’t have all of the same features and can’t use stocks, they are extremely popular alternatives, and just about every rifle manufacturer makes pistol versions of their guns for this booming market.
With the ATF’s decision to reclassify the Honey Badger Pistol as an SBR, many gun owners and gun manufacturers will be left to wonder if their pistols will receive the same treatment. If the ATF’s decision remains in place, or if they make other decisions like this one, the future status of large-format pistols might require a day in court.
iT HAS A WRIST BRACE STOCK SO IT IS A PISTOL ATF TARDS !
“The Deep State is strong in this one…” If the ATF can redefine semi-auto fire to now mean fully-auto fire just to ban bumpstocks, it can do this. It’s past time we stop taking the ATF seriously. They are traitors and are criminally going hard against our Constitution. They accept illegal orders and carry them out with no thought or care of their illicit actions. Blind, quiet acceptance is consent. It’s past time We, the People stop consenting-as is our inalienable (pron: in-ah-LEEN-able. Meaning NO LIENS may be place against our rights. No little green men here) right.
Your phonetic breakdown and pronunciation of inalienable is a bit off.
The base word, alien, is pronounced ā-lē-ən.
The word inalienable is broken down thusly: i-ˈnāl-yə-nə-bəl.
Both phonetic renderings are from Merriam-Webster’s dictionary.
I understand what you’re trying to do but let’s be correct in our information and honest, shall we?
Yikes!! Grammar police are out today..
The ATF cannot make Laws. They overstep their boundaries all the time, & must be called out on it. It’s contacting your Senator/Congressman & demand the ATF be curbed or DEFUNDED.
One does not base gun classification on looks, but on its specification. The weapon in question came with a legally defined armed brace. If people want to use it as a stock, it does not mean it is a stock. If we can define things based on looks, can I arrest you because you look like a criminal even if you did nothing illegal?
Unfortunately, the worst is yet to come for all firearm owners, if Biden/Harris become elected. The second amendment will be under fierce attack, especially, if the Democrats wrangle control of the House and Senate.
Grammer Nazi’s
WOW! I rarely ‘get-involved’ in these back -n- forth hate festivals…but ‘day-um!… The combat prowess of so many AMERICAN ‘keyboard commandos’ out here in the virtual world never ceases to astonish, disappoint, shame and push our “Super Power of all Superpowers” nation headlong towards oblivion. I am a loyal, proud and honorably discharged, pensioned 80% Army DAV that would be in big trouble without the monthly draw I receive each month from ‘our government’. My neck, back and an ankle are FUBARd’ forever from injuries absorbed while ‘wearing camouflage and firing combat weapons for a living’. I am a former ‘mechanic’ by trade and can’t do it anymore…and hell no, I don’t “know how to code”! I was ‘raised (somewhat) poor’ by todays standards and was working in the ag fields alongside my elders since I was 11 years old. One G-pa fought and lived through the WW2 battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa. He taught me how to hunt & “shoot real-tight-groups” when I was six. The other (due to a childhood eye injury) could not “go fight” but still built ships in the Norfolk ship yards 6-7 days a week till ‘VJ Day’. Dad fought (and lived with serious wounds) in the ‘Forgotten War’, aka Korea. Suffice to say me and mine, have damn sure ‘EARNED’ the right for freedom, FREE SPEECH and ‘the American dream’. Yes, yes, yes!…2A (exactly as it was founded) is non-negotiable. END OF STORY. I absolutely love GOD, guns, freedom, free speech, and dependable/loyal fellow AMERICANS. We DON’T have to agree on every friggin thing that comes up! However, we DO owe each other common courtesy and honorable behavior through thick & thin…as ‘fellow Americans’. Unless (you) were spawned & raised by single cell organisms, (you) instinctively (in-your-heart) know good behavior from bad…patriotism from treason/sedition, etc.
‘True & Loyal Americans’, slinging insults, threats and foul language at each other is EXACTLY what our TRUE ‘Globalist Enemies’ AND “The Father of ALL LIES’ is looking for. Don’t give in to your rage…save that for the ‘real war that is coming’!…the one for your flesh AND your very souls AND the soul of this great nation. Don’t believe the “Kenite’s” (aka, ‘the descendants of Kane’, aka “the first murderer”); rapture/fly-away doctrine either. Ref. The Strongs Concordance manual & KJV Holy Bible for the proof. I remember life BEFORE the internet and ‘all the trash talk’ I see out here would get you an unforgettable lesson and education in EXACTLY what to NOT say and do to others in the home, the streets and on the battlefield….real- QUICK! SO… Wise up, cleanup, pray up and get ready to FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! the REAL enemies of our Republic…not each other. “Pretty simple math eh Bob?” Now flame-away all you “trolls” , phonies, haters, commies, globalists and Godless heathens. (We) are hunting YOU. Soon (We) will find ALL of you…and your end will be EPIC. AMEN. God Bless America. Regs, ‘shocktrooper ’84’
This does not come as a surprise when I have seen countless photos of gun writers firing these guns from the shoulder. The anti-gunners have enough ideas without giving them more.
When will this face of short barreled rifles end? The Constitution is clear about the Right to Bear Arms, and the definition of arms has ling been established, Now at tot he definition of shoulder arms……
Rifle ……. Any shoulder fired, firearm with a stock and barrel over 22 inches ,,,,,,
Carbine ……. Any shoulder fired firearm with a barrel less than 22 inches…….
Pistol …….. Any hand held firearm designed to be used with your hands with barrel length less than 10 inches…..
In history I have never seen a Rifle or Carbine that is defined as a Short Barrels Rifle ……. You either have a Rilfe or a Carbine or a Pistol, all easily identified by their design, and All including Machine Guns meet the definition of Arms, and the Right to Posses Arms Is Protected By The Constitution, The Bill of Rights II Amendment, and there for legal for all law abiding citizens, Freemen, To own and posses for all Legal Purposes defined by the Constituion……………………..
Spot on brother
There are several historical examples of handguns manufactured and used with shoulderable butt stocks. The vast majority of which were revolvers. That didn’t make them SBRs
Well, after 1934 those revolvers having barrels under 16″, did become short barreled rifles. This “pistol” is an SBR. All of the pistol brace designs are SBRs. The industry pushed the bounds too far and it has now come back to bite them. That siad. The entire NFA ’34 needs to be repealed.
the article said
“There can be no question that our Constitution requires accountability to coincide with the enactment of laws, and that those laws must be within specific, limited, and enumerated powers, not left to bureaucrats who escape all aspects of responsibility,” the FPC continued. “Once more, we remind ATF and the executive branch that their authority has limits and that, if need be, they will once again be reminded of those limits through legal action.”
the FPC continued. “Once more, we remind ATF and the executive branch that their authority has limits and that, if need be, they will once again be reminded of those limits through legal action.”
well “legal action” has done absolutely NOTHING !
give me just 1 example where legal action has created a punishment for over stepping their authority!!
when have they been arrested, detained, sent to prison, been fired from their cushy public servant job, when have they lost their pension, or even demoted? when has their authority been taken from them, and their agency abolished?
NEVER!!
THE ONLY TIME IN AMERICA THIS HAS HAPPENED WAS WHEN MY ANCESTORS SENT KING GEORGE AND HIS MEN EITHER BACK TO ENGLAND OR STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!
the only legal action that is acceptable is to abolish ALL GUN RELATED LAWS and ABOLISH ANY GOVERNMENT GROUP THAT WANTS TO REGULATE ANY WEAPONS!!!
give criminals the right to own guns and citizens the right to KILL anyone that threatens them with violence!
i swear to GOD any pedophile just so much as touch my sons hand and ill feed the mother fucker to the worms!!
if a criminal breaks into my home, im NOT going to report the killing to the police, ill clean up the evidence and pretend nothing ever happened and if they try and prove something happened the complainant would have had to known that the missing person was going to my home to commit a crime! how else would they suspect me in the disappearance of their friend/ loved one? well people, those criminals will become missing too!
yes, i am CRAZY (psychopath), and im a convicted felon too. if you have been drinking or doing drugs and assault me or my family with a multi ton deadly weapon, you will NOT survive the accident!!
i do NOT have ANY firearms, but i have firearm related convictions!
if you are not a criminal (doing drugs or drinking and driving is a crime) you have NOTHING TO FEAR ill NOT do you any harm, and most likely help you out if i see you need help! i give stuff away all the time!!! but you think about doing me or my family harm, you better think about it some more, because i do NOT have a concise and if you hide behind your family thinking you will be safe, well you just sentenced them to DIE!!
and you gun owners out there need to start taking care of your own problems. since when is the “STATE” the victim, when someone rapes and kills your daughter? since when did a thief steal your money and possessions, and the state loose anything? the state only PROFITS when someone reports a “CRIME”, or gets caught doing something?
if you purchased a “honeybadger” and filed out any paperwork, you are at this very second a “FELON”! they can arrest you and convict you for violation of federal law, and take away your gun rights FOREVER!!
the “we going to sue you and make you change your ruling if we win” aint going to even phase the BATFE. seems the BATF went and gave themselves more authority and became the BATFE !
Ok. From what I understand from an ATF ruling, a stripped lower, that was not originally built as a Rifle from a manufacturer, could be built as a “rifle”, could either be built as a rifle or a pistol from the end user—-if the regulations at place were adhered to.
Also, The “pistol” brace could be shouldered Not for permanent use, but occasionally (?).
Have the changed their stance?
Q LLC pushed the bounds. The “brace” is a better shoulder stock than it is a brace. No one buys an AR pistol as a pistol, it is just a workaround the NFA. That new brace on the Honey Badger, Sugar Weasel and Mini Fix is nothing more than a stock. They will be reclassified as SBRs. The only cure for this is to stop trying to pass off SBRs as pistols and repeal the NFA.
Time to just shut down the NRA. They are gutless organization who I am sure will roll over on this issue just as they did on bump stocks. I am no longer a member and never will be again.
Sure……you were an NRA member. Yeah, that bump stock thing was so bad, we just need to get rid of another gun rights organization over that one issue.
Most likely you are a member of a commie, gun-grabbing organization. The article is about a pistol and the BATFE and you use it to attack the NRA. Why not attack the ATF? We know why….
GO BACK TO CHyNA, you troll.
Actually, in recent interviews, they stated that the NRA was the only org to step up and go to bat for them on this issue. I am still pissed about the bump stock, “re-classification” bs. Though I did not own one, I certainly felt the pain of my fellow 2A enthusiasts who got screwed over on that deal. They should have at least been compensated by the government for taking their legally owned property when they reversed stance on said legality.
This is what I always notice, when I check in on leftest websites (know your enemy) they are always sticking together. When I come here and other right wing sites they (WE) are always fighting each other and never letting others voice their opinion without malice and vinegar,how do you, we ever expect to win a war when we can not even agree to disagree? Pretty darn pitiful if you ask me. Were any of you all that are back biting ever in the service? I sure wouldn’t want you covering my backside.
Congress needs to shitcan the antiquated and totally unnecessary SBR law. With the large number of rifle caliber “pistols” with arm braces, and even those with no brace out there the law is really moot. One would think that allowing a stock to be put on a pistol would be a benefit to society, not a detriment.
A few weeks ago there was news that ATF was looking to classify any pistol with a brace that had a length of pull over 13.5″ as an SBR. Has anyone asked if the Q Honeybadger has a LOP at 13.5″ or more??? Maybe this is the ATF enforcing that limit. If so a simple change to a shorter brace could solve the problem. When I saw that news release I checked my pistol and it is well under 13.5″.
People never seem to learn: This entire agenda is nothing more than smoke and mirrors when it comes to bedrock 2A rights. Simply Google the court cite; Twining v. New Jersey and read why US citizens are not now or have ever been eligible to access the “Bill of Rights.”
When Americans ignorantly gave their consent to become a federal US “citizen” slave, they also gave away their God-given right as a sovereign. The courts have ruled that by accepting benefits from the government, they then became obligated to perform mandatory duties ie, paying taxes, obtaining licenses, giving away their lives in a faraway land during the war, only being allowed to “keep and bear” certain types of arms, etc, etc. Try to think of one thing in life that the government does not regulate in some fashion.
We all grumble about the ongoing infringement of our so-called personal freedoms that are merely privileges, such as “civil rights” that are actually benefits with a very high price attached, our endowed freedoms. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
“When a well-packaged web of lies has been gradually fed to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it’s speaker a raving lunatic”
Truth
A couple of thoughts… The ATF issued this decision back in August. Q LLC waited until Oct 6 to release it while trying to reach agreement with ATF on how to proceed legally from there. Those who have said that Biden and his gun-hating minions will make life miserable for all of us regardless are absolutely right. We denied Hellery her coranation and elected Trump and we will be made to pay for that. America will well and truly be gone forever four years hence. They will see to it. Don’t gloat about how smart you were to avoid these firearms. Your ox will be properly gored as well soon enough. I fell for the 9mm version of 1 of these, and wanted a 5.56 version so bad my teeth ached until I was at an indoor range where one was being fired a few lanes down and it literally ran me out as the muzzle blast was so intense I actually felt my left eardrum bouncing from the concussion. It occurred to me that firing one without proper earpro (muffs over plugs) in an enclosed space such as a house would result in immediate permanent hearing loss and I was over my lust for one. I think they should be restricted at indoor ranges because of their high-intensity muzzle blast, arm brace be damned.
And there lies the argument for sound suppressor 😃
💪😁👍
Excellent case for courts.
It is obvious this is not a brace in all adjustment positions. When fully collapsed it appears to be a stock, but extended suitable is a BRACE.
However,
a) current and past court rulings support its continued use and sale as acceptable under the legal fiction of “in general use” due to the large number and similarity of other commonly available braces in use. This therefore destroys the reason given by ATF… as it had previously been acceptable, or the ATF had not been diligent and acted in a timely manner;
b) ATF as all agencies acting under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1948 “APA 1948” make a report to Congress on all Agency Actions prior to the Actions going into effect;
c) All determination or rulings or acts of an agency must prior to going into effect be submitted to Congress for concurrence either by tolling of Congress failure to pass a bill to stop, or by tolling of Congress ability to act to pass a blocking bill,
d) ATF must as preparation and in report to Congress must prepare a cost analysis of the cost impacts to the public of any proposed ruling:
e) ATF cannot put into effect any proposed Agency Action without Congress having reviewed the act and costs, and only on a tolling of the time to act by Congress can ATF place into action its Agency Act,
f) If an impacted citizen or company wishes to submit to the agency an Appeal they have 30 days tolling after the act is deterred by the agency to do so (this is not appealable or wishing the jurisdiction of the Federal Courts until after rejection of an Appeal to the Agency by affected person(s).
g) Upon failure of the Agency Appeal the affected person(s) making the appeal my apply to the Federal Courts as the courts jurisdiction is available only after the appeal rejection,
I think without doing a legal brief here there would be at least 5 independent causes of action coming from this. And, ALL are winnable in the courts. If they any were won it would be very significant, as to limiting ATF using further Agency Actions to control braces or others.
Bureaucrats are always willing to allow the excesses of the few to ruin it for the many. It started with Dillinger, et al in 1934, and will end……where? It permits them to pretend that they are addressing the problem without having to actually do anything meaningful and effective while drawing their salaries and pensions and keeping good people with real answers from taking their pathetic, narrow-minded useless and dangerous places.
you expecting from the Trump administration ?? This is another example of their incompetence.
Trump hates military ,sportsman, and hard working people
We are suckers to him .
Well shucks, your child-like response convinced me, I am on board with Pedo Joe.
Just so I can tell my friends, how exactly does POTUS hate military, sportsman and hard working people?
Stupid TROLL, if you were working for me I would fire you for lazy trolling. No effort.
Go elsewhere little troll. As a Veteran, I KNOW PRESIDENT TRUMP not only loves the Military, but Veterans as well. He’s created more jobs, gotten wages higher, reduced taxes and regulations that help hard working small business owners and their employees, and is a champion of the Second Amendment. Go pedal your HORSESHIT elsewhere, and leave the Gun Blogs to the grown-ups.
We need to permanently defund all these unconstitutional alphabet agencies
REALLY ? Trump hates them ?? WHAT PLANET DID YOUR HEAD COME FROM, URANUS ?
Aaron, Don’t believe what the taking heads are telling you, we are smarter than that. Trump is the only President that has kept his word. Don’t be trolling your left wing talking points. Please get your own and use facts…I really feel sorry for people who believe what people tell them. If you own a gun and want to keep it to protect your family and your own life vote for anyone but the Democratic Party. They will take your guns and even more of your rights and money and land. Look it up!
Let’s be honest, 99.9% of the people that own these pistols never use the brace as a brace, they use it as a stock. It is a loophole that has been exploited by gun owners and gun manufacturers since these braces were first developed. The HB just took it even farther by having the brace extendable as far as they did. The ATF should have put restrictions on how long the brace could be, or whether it could be extended when they first okayed braces on these pistols.
And for the record, I am a conservative and pro 2nd Amendment. I own nearly 30 firearms and believe that I have the constitutional right to defend myself and others from danger using my guns. I also believe that all rights under The Constitution can be regulated to an extent, that includes restrictions on certain firearms that are available for the general public. If you honestly believe that you not being able to own a select fire SBR is the difference between defeating the military, you are an idiot. Pretty sure tanks and armored troop transport can handle those rounds.
What is a “loophole”? That word alone shows you are a CONCERN TROLL. Need to try a little harder to pretend to be a Patriot. Does your right to defend yourself and others extend to public space. Can I conceal carry an AR-15 pistol?
What are these restrictions on certain firearms that are available to the public that you mention? This is the same words, that usually follow “sensible” used by Commies that want to take away Modern Sporting Rifles.
If you really “own” 30 firearms that has nothing to do with your commitment to protecting our 2nd amendment. How have you advocated for the 2nd amendment since you are “pro-2nd”.
Frankly, it’s none of your business “why” anyone would want a select fire SBR. You’re the only one talking about fighting the military. That talk gives gun owners bad reputations
WHY… read my comment and following reply as to why… here they are pasted. It not only affects “gun rights” but much more… it is not the experience of our civilization…
Excellent case for courts.
It is obvious this is not a brace in all adjustment positions. When fully collapsed it appears to be a stock, but extended suitable is a BRACE.
However,
a) current and past court rulings support its continued use and sale as acceptable under the legal fiction of “in general use” due to the large number and similarity of other commonly available braces in use. This therefore destroys the reason given by ATF… as it had previously been acceptable, or the ATF had not been diligent and acted in a timely manner;
b) ATF as all agencies acting under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1948 “APA 1948” make a report to Congress on all Agency Actions prior to the Actions going into effect;
c) All determination or rulings or acts of an agency must prior to going into effect be submitted to Congress for concurrence either by tolling of Congress failure to pass a bill to stop, or by tolling of Congress ability to act to pass a blocking bill,
d) ATF must as preparation and in report to Congress must prepare a cost analysis of the cost impacts to the public of any proposed ruling:
e) ATF cannot put into effect any proposed Agency Action without Congress having reviewed the act and costs, and only on a tolling of the time to act by Congress can ATF place into action its Agency Act,
f) If an impacted citizen or company wishes to submit to the agency an Appeal they have 30 days tolling after the act is deterred by the agency to do so (this is not appealable or wishing the jurisdiction of the Federal Courts until after rejection of an Appeal to the Agency by affected person(s).
g) Upon failure of the Agency Appeal the affected person(s) making the appeal my apply to the Federal Courts as the courts jurisdiction is available only after the appeal rejection,
I think without doing a legal brief here there would be at least 5 independent causes of action coming from this. And, ALL are winnable in the courts. If they any were won it would be very significant, as to limiting ATF using further Agency Actions to control braces or others.
One of the important, probably the most important aspect of Heller has been forgotten here… the settling of the concept or “legal fiction” that once something has become of general or common use it cannot be under the 2nd Amendment fall under the concept described by Justice Scalia of “being in general use or circulation” as determinative in the fit between the first and second clause of the 2nd Amendment. Therefore, the strongest case is not that it is a brace or a stock or that it can be either by simply collapsing or extending it… though those arguments are possible but are not the primary determinative… as the primary determinative is the middle ground of the “fit between the first and second clause” as being determined by in general use or similar items being commonly in circulation amounts the population of gun owners. In this the Agency as let pass by lack of diligence and by its prior approval letters. See in the Common Law selectivity and creation of crime without act of Congress passing into is disfavored. Our Common Law is according to Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, “the experience of our Civilization… ” extending back a millennia.
I suppose where it all started, is the English Kings Star Chamber Court of the Plantagenet and Tudor King going back to 1398, Blackstone believing it named informally the Starr chamber based on the ceiling painting in the meeting room at Westminster. Formally established in the 2nd Parliament in 1470 under Tudor King Henry the VII, this was composed of Privy Counsellors and common-law judges, to supplement the judicial activities of the common-law and equity courts in civil and criminal matters. The Star Chamber was originally established to ensure the fair enforcement of laws against socially and politically prominent people so powerful that ordinary courts would probably hesitate to convict them of their crimes, as the Star Chamber had great flexibility in proceedings and processes. However, it became synonymous with social and political oppression through the arbitrary use and abuse of the power it wielded, ultimately under Stuart King Charles I its misuse contributed in 1641 to the beginnings of the English Civil War, and ultimately the beheading of Charles I in 1649. This becomes an important aspect of the development of American Law and Civil liberties.
This Star Chamber Courts actions was important to development of our 5th Amendment Rights. Our Supreme Court has referenced this as, “the Star Chamber has, for centuries, symbolized disregard of basic individual rights. The Star Chamber not merely allowed, but required, defendants to have counsel. The defendant’s answer to an indictment was not accepted unless it was signed by counsel. When counsel refused to sign the answer, for whatever reason, the defendant was considered to have confessed.” Faretta v. California, 422 U.S. 806, 821–22 (1975).
One of the important cases coming relatively late to the Star Chamber Court was “The Case of Proclamations”, in 1610 a constitutional law case having to do with “Royal Prerogative” under King James I. Tudor monarchs believed that they had the power to regulate, through the issue of royal proclamations, without the consent of Parliament. The monarch’s absolute power to “make” the law was beginning to be challenged by the English judiciary and was raising concern in Parliament itself. The issue of the King’s power to make law came before the judges in 1610 when James I and the Parliament were struggling over the issue of impositions. Parliament opposed the King’s power to unilaterally impose further duties on imports over and above what had already been sanctioned by Parliament. James I was attempting by his proclamations to raise further money outside of Parliament, to pay for the costs of Ostende from the Anglo-Spainish War.
The Star Chamber Court was convened by the King’s Chancellor, on 20 September 1610, Sir Edward Coke, then Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, was called before the Privy Council of England alongside Lord Chief Justice Thomas Fleming, Lord Chief Baron Lawrence Tanfield, and Baron James Altham. The question was to give legal opinion whether the King, by proclamation, might prohibit new buildings in London, or the making of starch or wheat, these having been referred to the King by the House of Commons as grievances and against law. Sir Edward Coke as the preeminent legal authority and scholar in England at the time, asked for time to confer with the other judges, since the questions were “of great importance, and they concerned the answer of the king to the Commons”.
Coke answer for the courts was, the power of the King to create new offenses was outlawed and that the King could not issue proclamation prohibiting new buildings in and around London. Meaning the Royal Prerogative could not be extended into areas not previously sanctioned by law, and the King cannot change any part of the common law, nor create any offense, by his proclamation, which was not an offense before, without parliament. Chief Justice Coke set out the principle that the King had no power to declare new offenses by proclamation. [Even perhaps as Judge Sullivan appears to be doing in the Flynn case]. Coke going further stated, the King has no prerogative but that which the law of the land allows him. Importantly, this meant the King had no power arbitrarily, through royal proclamations, to prohibit the erection of new buildings in London, nor the making of wheat starch without the consent of Parliament, because this power had not previously been granted by Parliament to the King by the making of statute law.
Its effect was a piddling away of Royal Prerogative basically determining under English law that the Monarch could make laws only through Parliament. The judgment began to set out the principle in English Law that when a case involving an alleged exercise of prerogative power came before the courts, the courts could determine:
a) The whether the proclaimed prerogative existed in law and how far it extended;
b) whether it had been limited by statute, and if so, in what way; and
c) whether there was any requirement that the Crown pay compensation after the
exercise of the prerogative.
These principles has been carried down though our experience in America to this present day and backed up by Constitutional process, many Acts of Congress, the further granting and regulation of executive under Acts of Congress, the power of Taxation under the Constitution, Statute, and the Common law over 231 years. The power of the ATF originally came under the power to levy Excise Tax in the Constitution, and later power of regulation under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1948, “APA 1948”. However, no Constitutional Amendment or Act of Congress has granted in regulatory or taxation power to the Agency to impose either taxes without such legal process or make Criminal Law without Act of Congress.
Here, this Agency Act imposes both a Tax on a wide swath of citizens, and makes ownership of a commonly held gun accessory a Felonious Crime… by fiat… see the long standing and held, The Case of Proclamations of September 24, 1610. Therefore, for the act to be legal likely both further action under APA 1948, and by Act of Congress is necessity.
It is important probable winnable case from not a “guns rights issue” but from a taxation, and limitation of power on the Executive!
Oh right….. and a rag tag bunch of American hooligans can’t possibly stop the British (1770’s). Right?
Can you hunt game with this? If not what is it good for other than disabled service folks? Or CQB? Other than those applications I prefer a longer barrel weapon for greater accuracy. Also, I can hit targets with my 6 inch Ruger revolver at 100 yards , plugged with .45 long colt rounds, so I don’t have the need for a SBR /pistol. Interesting comments and article…
Good thing it’s a bill of rights and not a bill of needs
Yes, you can. I have friends that hunt hogs with a .300BO barrel. Yes, it is good for mobility impaired Vets. If you use a wheelchair and shoot from a bench, it’s very good. Add a suppressor and you are ready to roll.
If you’re ringing steel at a 100 yards with a revolver, that’s impressive!
Since when did my RIGHT to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS hinge on a “sporting reason” ? News flash, the original INTENT of Amendment 2 was NOT for “sporting” reasons ! They wanted “arms” in the hands of ordinary people so they could defend their homes, towns, cities and the newly formed country against enemies , both foreign and domestic. The people themselves WERE the MILITIA, and they wanted to avoid the lesson learned by the British marching on Concord Mass to seize the firearms they had in an ARMORY. If the PEOPLE had the weapons in their personal possession, they could BEAR them on short notice and it would take a house to house search to disarm the people.
Why should you care what good these are. It’s a gun and people buy all kinds of guns for all kinds of reason. I don’t hunt and could not care less about hunting rifles and shotguns, as they have no use to me. I wouldn’t want to apply my criteria for owning a hunting rifle to step on your desires. Let us own anything we want.
Enough said
Last time I checked, the Constitution did not place the requirement of being a suitable hunting tool on the application of the 2nd Amendment.
Thankfully Heller VS DC completely invalidates your false assertions. It is BOTH a communal and an INDIVIDUAL right, as the The Right of the People to BKAs shall not be infringed has the same meaning as the similar phrase in the 1st Amendment
One of the important, probably the most important aspect of Heller has been forgotten here… the settling of the concept or “legal fiction” that once something has become of general or common use it cannot be under the 2nd Amendment fall under the concept described by Justice Scalia of “being in general use or circulation” as determinative in the fit between the first and second clause of the 2nd Amendment. Therefore, the strongest case is not that it is a brace or a stock or that it can be either by simply collapsing or extending it… though those arguments are possible but are not the primary determinative… as the primary determinative is the middle ground of the “fit between the first and second clause” as being determined by in general use or similar items being commonly in circulation amounts the population of gun owners. In this the Agency as let pass by lack of diligence and by its prior approval letters. See in the Common Law selectivity and creation of crime without act of Congress passing into is disfavored. Our Common Law is according to Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, “the experience of our Civilization… ” extending back a millennia.
I suppose where it all started, is the English Kings Star Chamber Court of the Plantagenet and Tudor King going back to 1398, Blackstone believing it named informally the Starr chamber based on the ceiling painting in the meeting room at Westminster. Formally established in the 2nd Parliament in 1470 under Tudor King Henry the VII, this was composed of Privy Counsellors and common-law judges, to supplement the judicial activities of the common-law and equity courts in civil and criminal matters. The Star Chamber was originally established to ensure the fair enforcement of laws against socially and politically prominent people so powerful that ordinary courts would probably hesitate to convict them of their crimes, as the Star Chamber had great flexibility in proceedings and processes. However, it became synonymous with social and political oppression through the arbitrary use and abuse of the power it wielded, ultimately under Stuart King Charles I its misuse contributed in 1641 to the beginnings of the English Civil War, and ultimately the beheading of Charles I in 1649. This becomes an important aspect of the development of American Law and Civil liberties.
This Star Chamber Courts actions was important to development of our 5th Amendment Rights. Our Supreme Court has referenced this as, “the Star Chamber has, for centuries, symbolized disregard of basic individual rights. The Star Chamber not merely allowed, but required, defendants to have counsel. The defendant’s answer to an indictment was not accepted unless it was signed by counsel. When counsel refused to sign the answer, for whatever reason, the defendant was considered to have confessed.” Faretta v. California, 422 U.S. 806, 821–22 (1975).
One of the important cases coming relatively late to the Star Chamber Court was “The Case of Proclamations”, in 1610 a constitutional law case having to do with “Royal Prerogative” under King James I. Tudor monarchs believed that they had the power to regulate, through the issue of royal proclamations, without the consent of Parliament. The monarch’s absolute power to “make” the law was beginning to be challenged by the English judiciary and was raising concern in Parliament itself. The issue of the King’s power to make law came before the judges in 1610 when James I and the Parliament were struggling over the issue of impositions. Parliament opposed the King’s power to unilaterally impose further duties on imports over and above what had already been sanctioned by Parliament. James I was attempting by his proclamations to raise further money outside of Parliament, to pay for the costs of Ostende from the Anglo-Spainish War.
The Star Chamber Court was convened by the King’s Chancellor, on 20 September 1610, Sir Edward Coke, then Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, was called before the Privy Council of England alongside Lord Chief Justice Thomas Fleming, Lord Chief Baron Lawrence Tanfield, and Baron James Altham. The question was to give legal opinion whether the King, by proclamation, might prohibit new buildings in London, or the making of starch or wheat, these having been referred to the King by the House of Commons as grievances and against law. Sir Edward Coke as the preeminent legal authority and scholar in England at the time, asked for time to confer with the other judges, since the questions were “of great importance, and they concerned the answer of the king to the Commons”.
Coke answer for the courts was, the power of the King to create new offenses was outlawed and that the King could not issue proclamation prohibiting new buildings in and around London. Meaning the Royal Prerogative could not be extended into areas not previously sanctioned by law, and the King cannot change any part of the common law, nor create any offense, by his proclamation, which was not an offense before, without parliament. Chief Justice Coke set out the principle that the King had no power to declare new offenses by proclamation. [Even perhaps as Judge Sullivan appears to be doing in the Flynn case]. Coke going further stated, the King has no prerogative but that which the law of the land allows him. Importantly, this meant the King had no power arbitrarily, through royal proclamations, to prohibit the erection of new buildings in London, nor the making of wheat starch without the consent of Parliament, because this power had not previously been granted by Parliament to the King by the making of statute law.
Its effect was a piddling away of Royal Prerogative basically determining under English law that the Monarch could make laws only through Parliament. The judgment began to set out the principle in English Law that when a case involving an alleged exercise of prerogative power came before the courts, the courts could determine:
a) The whether the proclaimed prerogative existed in law and how far it extended;
b) whether it had been limited by statute, and if so, in what way; and
c) whether there was any requirement that the Crown pay compensation after the
exercise of the prerogative.
These principles has been carried down though our experience in America to this present day and backed up by Constitutional process, many Acts of Congress, the further granting and regulation of executive under Acts of Congress, the power of Taxation under the Constitution, Statute, and the Common law over 231 years. The power of the ATF originally came under the power to levy Excise Tax in the Constitution, and later power of regulation under the Administrative Procedures Act of 1948, “APA 1948”. However, no Constitutional Amendment or Act of Congress has granted in regulatory or taxation power to the Agency to impose either taxes without such legal process or make Criminal Law without Act of Congress.
Here, this Agency Act imposes both a Tax on a wide swath of citizens, and makes ownership of a commonly held gun accessory a Felonious Crime… by fiat… see the long standing and held, The Case of Proclamations of September 24, 1610. Therefore, for the act to be legal likely both further action under APA 1948, and by Act of Congress is necessity. [I might mention this is why Kamala Harris and Slow Joe Biden will not legally be able to by fiat confiscate guns or anything else for that matter… yet the lady went to some kind of law school and past the bar… unlikey… unless she is stupid]. I
It is important probable winnable case from not a “guns rights issue” but from a taxation, and limitation of power on the Executive!
Cite as: 577 U. S. ____ (2016) Per Curiam SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
JAIME CAETANO v. MASSACHUSETTS ON PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT OF MASSACHUSETTS
No. 14–10078. Decided March 21, 2016
They decided that a stun gun was a common use weapon that was covered under the second amendment. Citing that it was LEGAL TO USE IN 45 States, and that more than 200,000 were in use by 2009, that it was in COMMON USE in a plurality of the states.
I believe the atf is complaining about the receiver extention. It looks to be about half as long as standard thus making the oal shorter than 26″.
Having said that, I measured my 10.5 inch oal and it is exactly 26″. So this may be a push to eliminate anything shorter.
Leftys sitting around thinkin’ “What can we do now?”
Lefty. But it’s the Right that is making these decisions.
Pay attention to what is going on.
Source please? Who is this “right” that you speak?
Sounds like a “false flag” operation you’re running.
The ATF is a bureau under the control of the Department of Justice. The president has direct control of the Department of Justice, thus direct control of the ATF. Therefore the statement is correct, the “right” Republican administration currently in control of the ATF is responsible for every decision the ATF makes, and can override any decision by the ATF at the snap of a finger.
I am not holding my breath. Trump has proven over and over again that his claim of being Pro-2nd Amendment was just a line in a speech to get votes. His actions and words continually show otherwise.
The ATF is under the Treasury dept. They are a revenue collection and enforcement arm.
Funny how someone who goes by “NC _Lib” finds their way to a gun enthusiast site to trash the POTUS.
So, using your logic, the “right” was responsible for illegally investigating the POTUS after his election? The unelected employees at BATFE become “right” instantly after an election. You clearly have never worked for the Federal Government. That’s not how it works.
Nice try TROLL. Go back to basement.
NO, they are NOT. Even ATF made several rulings stating clearly that thse are PISTOLS. This is an attempt by a leftist sleeper unit in BATF at the last minute to smear the Trump admin before the election. The swamp is deep and filled with such creatures. As for you we can only imagine what your motivation is, in attempting to restrict essential liberty via your false propaganda
Leftist sleeper unit.
Lol that’s hilarious
The greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exists.
Consider yourself fooled Aaron Kane.
Q pushed this too far. The brace was so solid that it simply was a shoulder stock. Reality check time. No one buys an AR pistol to use as a handgun. These are short barreled rifles. The NFA does need to be repealed. SBRs and SBSs are simply short guns. They are no different from any other gun except for length. People saying they need to be able to conceal them, need to get real.
Is this the genuine, Eric “Dick” Holder?
I like guns like this. I am 68, still believe we need our FFL System, and I have not liked The NRA since about 1990, but I like guns like this. About 8 years ago I had built some like this in 9, 40, 45, and the good old AK round. Now KelTec’s 2000 in 40 is The Bomb, but my 40 short barreled folding brace comes close. Anyway, I knew what I was doing became Illegal once I put it up to my shoulder, but I do that all the time anyway. My main concern was getting busted, followed by my Concern for Our LE. With one of my creations I can outgun any LE that has not gone on high alert. Thue, I say keep these things Stamped as it will keep guys like me from having them. Well that is unless U build em like I do. Trust me I don’t shoot em at the range, but I have some ground for shooting, and the 40 I built has 3900 roundes out the tube, and I think my 9mm has more then that but I have not shot it in a long time as 40 is gooder.
Ok, here is the rub: I don’t much care for either party, and I vote for the person or the issue, but never for a party. If The Right is a Gunners Gift then way have they not given me National C Carry, and why are all our Government buildings and offices Gun Free Zone?? Well I may have gooded when I said all as it really is only about 99% are Gun Free Zone. Come On Right Put Up or Shut Up as I have been waiting for 56 years as that is when the old NRA Attracted me into Gunning…………….
Why haven’t they given you Nat’l concealed carry? For the same reason they haven’t removed marijuana from the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 as a schedule 1 drug with all these liberal states passing marijuana legalization laws. It is a great gotcha! for gun owning folks that think they can now enjoy taking a toke now and then. It is a FELONY under the 1968 Gun Control Act to own firearms and use any quantity of marijuana, much less attempt to buy a gun and lie on the form 4473. Great way to seize your firearms and your right to vote plus a nice fine and attorney fees. No, they don’t want to put you in jail just seize your assets and keep you paying taxes. It makes them orgasmic just thinking about it…
Where is the ATF, or any other federal agency, codified in the Constitution of the United States, the supreme law of the land? The Second Amendment supersedes all actions by the federal government to subvert, undermine, arrogate or otherwise violate its supreme legal authority. “Shall not be infringed,” is not a suggestion. Any laws, court rulings, executive orders or bureaucratic regulations that violate the Second Amendment are null and void. The unalienable right of American citizens to keep and bear arms was bought with the blood of patriots. The federal government exists solely to protect and defend this right, and all the other rights, guaranteed in the United States Constitution. We allow these God-given rights to be trod upon by the federal government at our own peril.
You are spot on! I like the way you see through the fog and sort of shout it out to those who have
gotten tangled in the verbiage and hatred of the left. I will keep my mouth shut and let my votes talk.
America has paid a steep price for the Constitution and we need to hold on to it tight.
Thanks for the illumination.
We are just in a Communist country and most don’t realize it. Always after the ones that excercise their freedoms the most. If they would just go after the criminals that would best for them to do their job. But stop trying to make criminals out of the rest of us.
The other part of their job is to prepare this country for a takeover by the globalist Marxist, and Socialists. They are going after guns because they want a easy takeover without a rebellion. There is no reason otherwise to go after a peaceful group of mainstream gun owners other than a political takeover of some type. Has nothing to do with promoting safety for individuals. If it did they would leave self defense alone.
We are living in the shadow of an oppressive, tyrannical and traitorous take over of our country. Trump may be president, Republicans may control the Senate, but there are forces at work that overshadow any of this. There are unelected bureaucrats pulling the strings, a corrupt, biased, leftist press that constantly and consistently pushes a narrative at odds with truth and facts, and that continually disparages conservatives (and gun-owners especially). Once they achieve their political objectives, which they failed to do 4 years ago, this country will be unrecognizable. People need to wake up and realize we are on the precipice of tyranny and Marxism. Only the people can change things, but they must be willing to act.
They’re SBRs. Stop the BS. These ‘pistols’ are nothing more than SBRs. Plain and simple. People of principle know that. Anyone who has held one, seen one, or fired one knows that.
So, your saying SBRs should not be on the NFA list to avoid confustion, right?
Oh, no! Not the evil, dreaded, SBR lookalike.
Say it ain’t so. Anything but an SBR clone……DAMMIT!
so, why should they be banned, taxed etc.? Are they the criminals weapon of choice? Too dangerous for people to handle? Too many laws, too much confusion. IMO it’s an “Arms” and we have the right to bear one.
Pete you are sadly mistaken, misguided and uneducated.
The problem is that the BATFE didn’t know they were SBR’s themselves. If they had, they would have classified the weapons as SBR’s from the get-go. These things were submitted to the BATFE for a determination from the start and that determination was that they were pistols. Now the BATFE wants to change their mind (what unseen influence caused this?) and they don’t even respect The People enough to dream up a plausible reason – or any reason at all. This is still a Republic but the BATFE didn’t get the memo. They think they are a Monarchy ruling by divine right.
Beto? Is that you? Give me call.
The ATF should have no authority on this matter in the first place and the NFA is a violation of the 2nd amendment. “People of principle know that.”
Agreed! NFA is a notorious one-armed-bandit. I have wasted a goodly sum to appease their
illegal and cruel taxation. Tyranny in taxation caused the Colonists to beat back the British Army
and the Crown. Sounds familiar?
IF you can buy a ordinary “PISTOL”, that can easily be concealed on your person, then the SBR argument is VOID in the first place ! It should NEVER have been passed in 1934, and it still makes no sense today. You are banning a firearm that is shorter than 26 inches because it can be easily concealed , yet ANY pistol can be easily concealed, so what is the point ? Because it has a “stock” , big deal. CALL THE sbr RULING FOR WHAT IT IS, A huge government over reach ON YOUR RIGHTS !
OK, let’s consider these pistols aa SBRs momentarily. What is the rationale to regulating SBRs? What is the Constitutional distinction between a 16″ barrel and 15″ one?
Guess its a good thing in a tragic boating accident….. who knew a 1000lb safe in a canoe was Such a bad day
Based on my research, 99% of the so-called pro-2nd community believe the amendment was placed in the Bill of Rights to protect the individuals rights. Those who Framed the Constitution were extremely well educated in law and the history of law. William Blackstone wrote that self-defense “is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away by the law of society.” With this knowledge, the Founders would not have written the second as an individual right, but rather for what it clearly reads, “the security of a free State”, and the “necessary” tool for that is “A well regulate Militia”.
In the terms of what the Framers experienced and understood, Militia was able-bodied men required to be enrolled by the commander of the company in such district that they reside, and providing their own arms. This is spelled out in both the Colonial, and subsequent State militia statutes.
Above this is the irrefutable fact that Article I, § 8, Cls. 15 & 16, Article II, § 2, Cl. 1 require that there be Militia to perform the duty commanded by those sections. And an important note of the debates is that the Framers insisted that there be no “select militia”, or in today’s vernacular, National Guard. The Guard is actually promulgated under Article I, § 10, Cl. 3 of the Constitution that allows Congress the authority to grant States the ability “to keep Troops *** of War, in time of Peace”. Justice McReynolds noted this distinction in his U.S. v Miller decision. A decision that is actual law based on statute, historical record, and the writings and commentary of those who debated and ratified the Constitution.
The individual right theory is at best foolish, and at worst a promotion of those who are opposed to an armed citizenry that has no lawful status. Whereas, Militia is a constitutional command, is composed of the body of the people, and has the lawful authority to protect all our rights.
A semi-colon connects two separate but linked thoughts in the same sentence. The original work up of the Bill of Rights had the right to keep and bear arms as a separate entry, They combined it into one with a semicolon separating the two halves. Not only were they knowledgeable of the English Language, they also knew how to construct sentences. The Framers fully intended the citizens to be armed, not just the military or the ‘National Guard’, they had lived under the guns and swords of the English, they knew the importance of defending their individual selves from the tyranny of the day.
Yes, and they were NOT going to make the same mistake that they did in the very beginning of the Revolution, where all the weapons were kept in one place. People need to remember that the first shots of the Revolution were traded with British troops that were marching to Concord to seize the arms that they had. IF the people themselves had the weapons in their personal possession, then the only way to seize the weapons , was a house to house search for them. The ordinary citizen could also employ them on a moments notice if called upon to do so. People forget History.
Smart
The “ ; “ is the key.
The most common use of the semicolon is to join two independent clauses without using a conjunction like and.
The Constitution is written to limit the power of the federal government and states that authority not specifically designated as a federal authority is reserved for the states.
If you read the first 10 amendments to the Constitution all are individual rights Except the second?
Justice Scalia pointed out in the Heller case that is unlikely that the founders would insert a “States Right” into the 10 amendments that were approved the same day especially when the clause:
“authority not specifically designated as a federal authority is reserved for the states” would allow the states to maintain a militia without an amendment.
In the Heller case the Supreme Court also looked at the writings of the authors of the second amendment to determine their intent. The Supreme Court determined that the intent was that the second amendment was an “Individual Right”.
Spot on, Gary!!
Your whole statement is wrong.
Your conclusion of research shows that you really do not comprehend well . Bottom line if this so called Militia (Police) are not sitting in my living room while someone breaks into my home and ties me up to watch bad people rape my wife is what, SHIT HAPPENS? So, I am not allowed to defend myself, family, friends, neighbors and country from evil? What about the most important issue it was made a Bill in the Bill of Rights? To keep tyranny from ever prevailing. WE THE PEOPLE, not we the government. And last, our freedom is a result of the citizens arm in arm of all color and religion with arms. WE THE PEOPLE
The National Guard did not exist until 1903. States used to maintain militias, some still do. The ARNG is a reserve component of the US Army and is subject to federalization. The militia is not. The unorganized militia is made up of individuals. We have the individual right to bear arms.
Apparently, we have a Socialist troll in here. This libtard thinks out of all the Bill of Rights, the 2A is the only one that is NOT an individual right. I don’t give a crap what you think. I have a God-given right to defend myself. Go away and stay away.
Pin the brace so it can’t extend and end of story. We can debate all other thoughts to no end but pin it and get back into production. We all have seen how the “pistol brace” has been pushed to the limits for several years with each maker going just a little further. Personally I don’t think atf should have any control in this and the nfa should become toilet paper. But, they are here to stay until we retire and replace the spineless politicians. The people that keep getting re-electing year after year. Now imagine if you will that all congress members have too retired mandatory at 65! No exception. Then we elect members that matter. ……….time for my morning coffee.
I would not touch by modifying in any way an arm brace. On the braces that have set screws to adjust length they said installing red loctite to the set screw is a violation in itself. Everyone just take a deep breath and wait. They will kick in our doors when they are ready… Yeah, we kept taunting the devil until he rose up out of hell.
The best part is all the battles in court with ATF and the US Government. What happens afterward? They just do whatever they want to anyway. Battling a system with THEIR system. LMAO. Why don’t we have some sort of foundation that protects people’s right to bear arms?
Edit; Sorry we did have the 2nd Amendment which was abolished. Hey that worked out great didn’t it?
I guess its back to paracord, tennis balls, cane tips, fiberglass, duct tape, and pipe foam insulation on a lower receiver extension.
Well said,I agree
BLM and Antifa have some things in common with the 2A community. Both are tired of the Government boot. We need to bring all our groups together and fight towards that one common goal. By doing so, the media will have trouble labeling with their typical negativity. Believe me all groups have a common thread but we go about it differently. Maybe it’s time to band together against the boot. Let’s face it, those groups are more organized and are posed off regardless if you agree with them. Many of us sit and wait. I have a lot to lose. Probably more than many reading this. However, when you have children, you reach a pint where you don’t care anymore. You either protect their future and this country’s future or you don’t. A parents love for their child will make that woman and man become ferocious. We can take a page from Antifa and BLM in that they say Fuck it. Let’s roll and fight back. Again, regardless if you agree with them or not, they got balls. Not all of them are living in their moms basement as the arrest prove. They have careers and jobs. The common threat to all Americans and groups is tyranny & an out of control government. You either fight for your child’s future or you don’t. It’s getting to the point where people don’t care. It’s to the point where the ABC government bodies can put any law because people will not abide by it because it’s infringing on liberty. If Biden wins and passes laws who gives a shit. BLM and Antifa are showing they aren’t listening to the boot anymore. Maybe, the 2A community can learn from this. Die for your kids man die for your family and country. Band together with other groups and find the common problem. Just a thought. Bless our children and our country
Looks like we have another CONCERN TROLL alert.
soi boi, chyna agent, democrat operative or unmarried millennial female, whatever you refer to yourself as…..you are conflating the loss of constitutional rights with terrorist organizations? Really? This is the WORST CONCERN TROLLING EVER.
Go to the internet and look up “conflate” and look up “red herring”. Then look up what a “concern troll” is. Get back with us.
I’m not a troll and understand these organizations have Marxist tendencies. I’ve know this for awhile.
What I’m saying is take a page from them and get off your ass and fight. I’m getting to the point where I don’t care about laws that infringe. Stop obeying them. Aren’t you ready to fight for your children? I would die today to give my children tomorrow’s liberty. Do you want your kids to grow up in a country you no longer recognize? I’m not. My whole family was military and many in law enforcement. That being said, even they are tired of government over reach. I keep reading things like a brace is pushing the limits. The limit of what exactly. Aren’t we tired of these billion laws we have to follow? We are a law abiding community. However, doesn’t there come a time where we get sick and tired of the infringements. All I’m saying is those other groups , WHICH I DISAGREE WITH got more balls than most. When will the 2A organizations and pro 2A media start organizing and marching the streets of every city? When are going to organize a PEACEFUL PROTEST for the Mccluskeys who protected their home in St. Louis? Take a page from those organizations and fight back. You don’t have to agree with those groups in everything, but at least they fight. Again, IM PRO AMERICAN AND DO NOT SUPPORT COMMIE GROUPS. I’m however tired of the bullshit laws that keep kicking the law abiding citizen. The come and take it moto is a great moto because it means you are ready to die for your rights. Who cares about a stupid brace. It’s so stupid to argue over this shit. We aren’t hurting anyone, but the ABCs don’t care. They just want to control you regardless. I’m rambling and have to work. I wanted to just say I’m no fucking commie troll. I have a ton to lose but I’m sick and tired of the lack of organizing in our community. Bless our USA and stick together. Don’t do any infighting and respect each other’s opinions.
No worries. This place is overrun with Commies. Glad you’re not.
IMO, the ideas you mention won’t happen like marching. People that are conservative by nature and value privacy and liberty are less inclined than Commies to protest and march. There are examples like the pro-life people. But in that case, it’s usually a big event near the Lincoln Memorial. In case you forgot, it’s at that event that Nick Sandmann was savaged by militants and then later the media. Until Sandmann became news, the media ignored the whole right to life rally. My point is, we can march all we want, but if we are expecting media to be there, not gonna happen.
This stuff has to be done at the grassroots level. Take people to range. I have red pilled a lot of people just by letting them shoot a .22.
This article has several serpent tongued trolls commenting. Some are trickstier than others, this BLM advocate is quite transparent. BLM are communist scum, we are true American patriots. And we ARE going to win this war, so never give in and never stop fighting
While I agree we need to ban together to take back our republic I disagree whole heartedly that any of these commy groups would fight with us for the cause. It’s obvious to me that many Americans embrace tyranny They want govment money, not freedom.
Is this the genuine, Eric “Dick” Holder?
There’s gonna be some stuff I say here – that some may disagree with. I am STRONGLY 2A, but I’m trying to look at this OBJECTIVELY and not just say F-K the ATF.
A great majority of the SB Tactical braces telescope. I own a number of them myself. I don’t think the telescoping feature was the issue here.
Aside from the arbitrary and capricious reclassification of the Badgers one – is the fact that the only difference between the pistol and the SBR version of their product is the strap installed on the brace. Had Badger/SB made some more significant differences between the two, it’s less likely their OPINION would have changed. Braces have gone from flimsy/thin things with straps – to sturdy stocks with straps. We walk right up to the line, to see what we can get away with.
And I say OPINION – because it is JUST THAT.
ATF letters are OPINIONS from their technology department as to what classification a device falls under accords to LAW (the NFA in this case).
Why this OPINION changed is anyone’s guess – though I gave MY OPINION above. I seriously doubt it came from “on high”, and it was some jag-off, somewhere in the labyrinth of bureaucracy that is the ATF, that just decided to mess with us. It might the “Q angle” (which is kinda dumb in my opinion, but I digress).
The shape of things to come? Testing the waters? A similar thing occurred with bump stocks – which was entirely political. It was the admin “throwing a bone” to the left. I didn’t AGREE with that move – but I UNDERSTOOD it. The biggest issue I had with that “de-legalization”, was that people were not offered the ability to either “grandfather” their bump stocks (for free), or be compensated for them. Me PERSONALLY – I have thousands of $$’s of stuff on shelves in my shop – stuff that didn’t work the way I thought it would – or configurations I got bored with (that’s not counting motorcycle, car and other “projects”, where parts and take-offs take up a HUGE AMOUNT of storage. So aside from the anger of an “opinion” changing – cutting up a bumpstock – wouldn’t have had me eating Raman Noodles.
Keep in mind also – as with any NFA QUESTIONABLE ITEMS – the MERE PRESENCE of a part that would change the classification of a firearm, in the same PHYSICAL LOCATION of that firearm, would be a violation. So take the brace OFF – and bring it to your office (or a friend/relatives) that doesn’t have a firearm this can mount on – until this blows over. I hardly think ATF is going to Track all the Badger Pistol 4473’s and go door-to-door.
But let’s not KID OURSELVES EITHER. Braces were originally designed for one-handed shooting – by veterans for disabled veterans that could no longer shoot 2-handed. We went through the “shouldering of braces” illegal/legal. But again – not saying the NFA should be RESTRICTING OUR RIGHTS IN THE LEAST – we ALL USE OUR BRACED PISTOLS AS SBR’s.
Show of hands – who here – straps the brace to their arms and shoots it one-handed? Yeah – I thought so. So let’s not “play dumb” here.
So again – I don’t think SBR’s, Suppressors, etc. should be regulated. And from a “philosophical standpoint”, neither should select fire arms. Though from a practical/realistic standpoint – I don’t want the streets flooded with machine guns either.
But keep in mind – even if you’re butthurt by the bumpstock decision – ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES. WE KNOW THE DEMS will start banning what they can – WITHOUT CHANGING STATUTES. Since ATF is an “executive agency” – much of what’s already in our safes can experience a “change in opinion”, and all of a sudden become illegal. AND HARRIS/BIDEN WILL START THERE.
With the number of first time gun owners purchasing in the last year – we have a lot of POLITICAL FENCE SITTERS, that may just come down ON OUR SIDE this time. If you KNOW ONE (first time gun owner) – ask them WHY THEY WAITED UNTIL NOW to buy – and if THEIR RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH to ignore all the “Orange Man Bad” crap – and VOTE THE ISSUES. And OUR RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE is one of those issues that is PLAINLY UP FOR GRABS THIS TIME.
Keep your mags stuffed – put fresh batteries in your optics – be safe (not stupid). They seek to provoke us. They have been for the last decade or more. This brace decision is just another poke in the eye. Keep your calm head about you. Now is NOT THE TIME TO BE STUPID.
GOD BLESS AMERICA – GOD PROTECT PDJT.
It is time to eliminate EVERY infringement upon our right to keep and bear arms! If an infantryman has it, so should We the people. Eliminate the ATF (BATFE), NFA, GCA, FoPA and every bit of the apparatchik enforcing the unconstitutional and illegal infringements. Where does 2A say anything about the size of a barrel, magazine, caliber, action, etc?
Mongo, I totally agree.
You are cool man. My DDM4 v5s is like a couple inches longer then most SBRs. I guess the pinned muzzle brake makes it legal. However living in CA it’s classified as an “ assault weapon.” If the commies win these coming elections i suspect every black rifle all throughout the land will be banned.
I made it to ” I am STRONGLY 2A, but “
I pretty much agree with this analysis. For 2A believers, there is no choice between the elephant and the jackass. There are some elephants that don’t support 2A rights but the jackasses have said they’re going to take away, confiscate, outlaw, whatever, everything. Maybe Joe will let you keep a single shot shotgun for protection. They’ve said it!!!! At least as it stacks up right now, most of the elephants are standing up for most of the 2A rights. Keep the orange man in office and start supporting the GOP that are solid 2A supporters and out the rest. We are never going to change the dims. Support and change the GOP because there is no other viable option. At least Trump is doing his best to provide SCOTUS appointees that will hopefully be enforcing the Constitution/Bill of Rights rather than doing judicial legislation!
The apparatchik control freaks of the ATF anticipate a socialist takeover next administration. They are starting their tyranny already. They much prefer statistics filled with technical activity than head-on confrontations of violent criminal wrongdoing and the meaningful stats that would derive therefrom. It has been this way since the 1970s.
Such a flake with these yank-out-the-butt, whatever-grabs-ya, decisions that don’t mean a damned thing for stopping felonies.
Everyone here is an idiot but me.
Common Use doctrine, people.
Suppose you get 10 million “braces” into the hands of gun owners in america. Suppose you then say on your website “this stock has two positions”. Suppose this then causes ATF to respond by rebranding the machine as a SBR.
That’s 10 million felons, and an argument for Common Use. Being Common Use would break down the validity of the SBR law of NFA.
Think 5 and 10 years out. Stop knee jerking and start strategizing.
Everyone who ever thought that these types of guns (and bump stocks too) were a good idea, are partly to blame for bad press and attempted further restrictions on our 2a rights. While I acknowledge the right to own these ridiculous guns and useless accessories (bump stocks…), they only serve to hurt gun owners as a whole. I never understood what people are thinking when the look at this crap. What is the purpose of buying a rifle caliber pistol, only to add a rifle like stock? If you want a pistol, why convert it back to a rifle like configuration? You want a rifle, buy the rifle. You want a pistol, buy and leave it a pistol! It’s not like ARs aren’t under unending attack as it is.
No sense at all. They say common sense is not so common. Yep! Glad I never wasted any $$ on the trash.
Just because it is a right, doesn’t make it right.
Totally agree with you. Have you ever tried to aim a rifle/pistol with one of these braces attached? Can’t be done. Similarly, when I was a kid, other kids made “bump stocks” with popsicle sticks and rubber bands for their 22LR rifles. (Of course, being the law abiding child of my father, I would never have done this) In both cases, the ATF looked to the strict language rather than the intent of their regs and made rulings they have since come to regret. Nobody should be surprised that ATF takes a harsh stance to assure there is no expansion of those past rulings.
Sir, I understand your frustration, but many people love these larger caliber pistols. Speaking as a former Special Operations soldier I can attest to their incredible usefulness, not just as a LE/military PDW, but as a domestic Personal Defense Weapon used in and around vehicles or for home defense.
sounds like you want control over other people. you are either a coward or anti 2nd amendment.
So, because you don’t like them we shouldn’t have them? Wouldn’t it be easier to say, let’s abolish the NFA instead of tying yourself into knots trying to justify denial of my constitutional rights?
I’m glad you weren’t around when they invented the carbine length rifle. We’d still be using muskets.
You are a complete fool and a threat to Liberty itself!
Just because you don’t like, want, understand, need etc. a particular product doesn’t mean it should not be defended completely. Is this the first ruling or law that tries to restrict gun or accessories ownership of some sort? Of course not!
Giving an inch with government turns into miles of oppression! Apparently you’re too stupid to understand that! I guess you also believe candy should be illegal because of its high sugar content or maybe, the corvette that does three times the legal speed limit, right from the showroom floor.
Patriots don’t need idiots like you in our camp that are only willing to speak up for things they like or understand!
Piss off you moron…!
Yeah I decided I don’t like you. Ban this guy.
See how that looks?
I do consider them SBR’s myself, but who cares? These braces
were just a loophole from keeping pistols from being classified as rifles. The real problem is the barrel length itself, which shouldn’t matter at all. For the ATF to re-classify a pistol as a SBR after the fact is pretty much BS.
We found Captain Fudd, folks. “Friends” like him we don’t need
Let’s face it: It really is a SBR and that’s what everyone loves about them. It’s a pistol like vodka is water.
Incorrect. You have accepted and are now promulgating the gun-grabbing leftist premise.
You all should realize that if Bite-me gets in, he will immediately pass an executive order to end their legality. Other executive orders will also be passed to further eliminate guns. Clinton did it and more are coming.
Not this time for me! I have quit a few pistol braces and actually ones on its way in the mail right now and I’m NOT removing a single one ever under any circumstances since I LEGALLY bought them PER ATFE say so! FUCK THE FEDS!!!!!!
Hush, hush, half of these concern trolls posting here are ATF Karens (spies). They want to shoot your dog.
It’s not right to make something legal , and then after a few years make it “illegal”. People invested time and money on that gun.
I wish there was a way to make all liberal politics “illegal”. That would be the day
Isnt the timing odd. Right before the election. Its the Deep State people in the ATF that are doing this both to hurt Trump his reelection. All they have done is identify themselves.
Give it a rest with the “Deep State trying to hurt Trump” garbage. There is no Deep State.
The ATF has a long history of contradictory decisions and they have gone back-and-forth regarding what’s legal and what isn’t legal for years. Way before Trump was elected president. They did this sort of thing when Obama was president.
Mike, sir, I worked with the “Deep State” for 3 years while I was retiring from the military. I left when I realized how slimy it is. It’s not some organized polit-bureau, but it is a shadowy group of elitist lawyers/lobbyists, media members, think-tanks, NGO’s, and government officials that all hire each other and marry each other and that go to the same schools. They may be even be from different political parties, but they are united in the belief of a ruling class in a Global environment… oh, and POWER!!!
that is exactly what the deep state is….
PLEASE STATE YOUR SOURCE FOR THIS COMMENT.
Please show the ATF did this type of behavior 30 days before the 2012 presidential election?
I don’t buy the coincidence. Denial of a DEEP STATE given documentation released of the spying on Trump campaign and administration is deflection and what a CONCERN TROLL would write.
ATF issued their decision back in August to Q.LLC. Q released it to the general public on Oct 6th.
You live in a fantasy world if you believe there is no “Deep State”. You just outed yourself as a liberal supporter of the Deep State. And for the record, the difference with Odumbo was his UNWAVERING support for anything anti second amendment pushed by the ATF. The only reason he didn’t get his way most of the time was legal recourse by gun owners. He NEVER supported the 2nd Amendment. Post somewhere else Mr. Liberal.
No Deep State? Why do you think the BATFE only targeted the Honney Badger? Was it because it is produces by a company called “Q”, LLC? Why didn’t they add others like Springfield Armorys’ SAINT pistol or PSA or RRA etc. FB, Twtr and IG have been banning “Q” accounts, on their platforms, by the Thousands!
Unrelated: Why was Comey’s daughter the lead prosecutor on Jeffrey Epstein’s sex trafficking case. Where his cell video footage was “lost”? Maurene Comey’s husband is Lucas Issacharoff, who is taking over for AUBREY STRAUSS, the US Attorney for SDNY, who indicted GHISLAINE MAXWELL.
Hey Mikey……how long ya been drinkin’ the kool-aid?
Step out of the bubble Mike. Not trying to make this personal but of course there is a deep state. If there is no deep state then how can all of the major media be against Trump? In a free society it’s not possible unless a few are telling the masses what to do and say as they are all complicit. Bad penguin was referring to the deep state as all the employees that have worked for all the agencies for decades. Politicians come and go mostly but their the ones doing all of this and making these decisions. Think about it. It’s not a conspiracy. It’s a fact. Look how far these communists have taken over. Before 1968 you could order a gun through the mail and have it shipped to your door. We were a nation of people presumed innocent. Now we are presumed guilty and through background checks have to prove to the government that they should allow it. FFL dealers and background checks weren’t created to safe lives. It was created to register and track weapons so they know who has them. That’s why they want to end private transfers. Can’t have complete control if you can’t track them. Control and power is what this is all of this is about. Buy more pistols with braces and ammo. It’s not up the government to tell us what we should and shouldn’t own. They only have a duty to protect our god given right not to limit them as they see fit.
Well said.
Well I will agree the ATF has played these type of games for years, to say there’s no deep state is delusional on your part. What do you call all the correspondence between Lisa page and Mccabe, the FBI agent talking about getting Trump and having an insurance policy… The whole Russia investigation based on a dossier paid for by Clinton. New hand written notes from John clapper head of the CIA to Obama about how Hillary was trying to make it look like Trump is in bed with the Russians. After Trump was elected the top female AG refusing to follow trumps orders. I mean it goes on and on and on. You may not like trump but they say that they weren’t out to get them is being naïve
If there is no deep state then there was no MKULTRA and Bilderberg Group et cetera. Tough sell.
Let’s see if trump steps in or remains silent
What specifically do you want him to say policy-wise that will be understood by non-gun owners too? He already made pro-2nd Tweets today.
So Trump tweeted something about the 2A? Great! That means everything is fixed.
Not.
Do you know what Trump tweeted some Pro-2A comments? So people like you would say “look how great Trump is, and how much he cares about us. No, really, he CARES. He means it, he said so”.
NEWSFLASH: Trump could care less about gun rights in this country. He just keeps telling us he does so that we will vote for him. And all of you keep believing him, despite 4 years of contrary evidence. Don’t like my making that statement? Then prove me wrong by stating one single thing Trump has done in almost 4 years to restore gun rights to the citizens of this country. Just one.
As for the tweets, a Tweet is just electronic words. I am tired of his words, when is there going to be action? So get back to me when he actually does something. Besides tweeting that is.
We the people, should arbitrarily ignore the ATF and any other faction that is trying to control us in such a way as to go against our 2A rights. Laws were created as a means of helping the people, not to infringe on us. Defenders of this great country and of our rights as legal gun owners unite and go against this unfounded new law and do not let the government agencies take control.
Hello ATF? Is that you encouraging me to violate the law? Give me your office number.
I didn’t know laws were created to “help” people.
Someone is going to have to be charged for a violation of this to have standing before the courts to file an appeal, right? Otherwise the fear and intimidation and brute thuggery and blatant tyranny hangs in the air like a suffocating blanket… Kinda like their refusal to change the federal marijuana laws to comport with state marijuana laws….Oh wait! I think I get it now!
Take a look at the 2nd image… it’s because the Badger has a sliding brace that extends to the length of a full stock so it can be shouldered… it’s not rocket science guys, Q tried to exploit a loophole and got caught.
Fl Guy
I think your correct. After looking at the second picture it does seem to look extended to a rifle length.
Maybe they could get out of this mess for all of us who have several pistols with the SB brace if they would put a standard pistol brace that doesn’t extend beyond the so called uncomfortable zone.
I think they got caught pushing the limit.
Now before I get torched I don’t like what the lettered government agencies do or get away with at all. If they can get us torching each other then they win and the law abiding citizens lose.
Tj
No, first, it was the “machine gun law” of 1985. None of this has to do with this administration, as the democrat states above. It has to do with the ATF overstepping it’s bounds! The democrats just want us all to think that! Maybe if Pelosi was held accountable for stealing all of our social security. Or Hillary Clinton was jailed for her atrocities, then maybe they’d start being scared and be held to the same laws and regulations. The ATF was created during prohibition. That law was repealed. Just as the rest of their antiquated laws should be! Guns don’t kill the average innocent. Bad people do. These laws won’t stop those bad people, they’ll still get what they want because they are in fact, bad people.
Unfortunately, Commies like Obama and Clinton and their ilk in the deep state don’t get punished for illegal acts. They get book deals and become analysts on CNN.
I think Q’s mistake is they “marketed” it as a “2-position telescoping stock” as seen here on their website previously… https://web.archive.org/web/20200506181639/https://www.liveqordie.com/products/honey-badger-pistol/
Thanks for the link, that was illuminating. I believe you’re right, them calling it a stock in their description probably influenced the ATF’s determination.
The totalitarians strike again. The NFA does not prevent any actual crimes. It merely creates some. It should have been repealed long ago. The substantive effects, like prohibiting ownership of hand grenades, can be considered more deliberatively. Apparently “destructive devices” doesn’t include Molotov cocktails, depending on whose hands they’re in.
This is because the company name “Q” scares the crap out of them right now.
Eu so gosto rifle 22 lr
I like it too!
That’s witty, thanks for sharing. The concern trolls here won’t get that comment.
This is my first time reading about the honey badger pistol. Your article is outrageous, keep up the great work.
Carl. New York
First bump stocks, now this… It seems that we’re getting more restrictions now than we did in the previous administration.
Concern Troll Alert! Let me guess you voted for President Trump but just can’t do it now and Biden or some third party person we never heard of is your savior.
At first that came for the bumpstocks. “It’s a toy,” “it’s a loophole,” “this isn’t the hill to die on”. Now what? 520,000+ bumpstock owners felons over night. How many honey badger owners are going to get sacrificed this time?
Another Concern Troll Alert! What are you going to do? Vote Biden/Harris that promise (yes promise) to ban all AR-15’s by executive order. What are you going to do blame Trump when the Supreme Court is stacked with Libs and rule Biden’s confiscation is constitutional? Concerns Trolls Suck Worse Than Straight Up Libs. At least they are honest about their intentions you troll.
Rage against the machine? Trolls apparently hide on both sides of the trail.
Sauce? So easy to flush CONCERN TROLLS.
They won’t stop until all that is left is being able to look at pictures on the internet.
“It was never about bump stocks”
-Tim from Military Arms Channel
Have to disagree, pictures of firearms will be an illegal “thought crime”. Kiddie porn pedophilia will be OK with the leftists ( Pedo Joe Biden) because it’s a “P” added to LGBTQ. Who are we to judge their sexuality? Now guns, well guns are just awful.