I disagree with your BATFE remarks. Please read BATFE’s March 4, 2006 letter on forward verticle grip on a handgun. “IT” Is their position on the subject. It been nine years and IT has not been incorperated into the Laws and Codes that THEY are tasked to enforce. Only two court case on this. One Case has no internet footprint and can not be found. On the second Case a Magistrate was going to Rule against ATF’s interpretation; so BATFE had the Prosecutor drop the Charge. BATFE states they don’t recognize the Magistrates Written decission (installation of a verticle forward grip on a pistol with a rifled bore does not un-make a pistol and make an AOL. Per the NFA: Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
Strange how that works!
Will DriderJanuary 12, 2015, 9:29 pm
Great informational vid. Delibertly simple and should be understood by all interested people. Examples and demonstrations were the perfect “Go -No go” gauge for this topic. After Sig gets through their current flash suppressor or silencer Court debate with BATFE, we need to have them develope a pistol forward monopod stand for extended bench shooting. WELL DONE MAC
MikeJanuary 12, 2015, 6:28 pm
What do you have stuck in your belt – ? Looks like a 5.7…?
RandallJanuary 12, 2015, 2:57 pm
I have a Sig 556 pistol, then I ordered a brace from Sig. As soon as I saw it and tried to put it on my arm I realized the only way to comfortably shoot it was from the shoulder. In my opinion, there are much better ways to manufacture a brace. The hard rubber wrap around portion was very uncomfortable on my arm and nearly hit my upper arm. The inside rear edges of the brace are sharp. The whole thing to me, looked as if it was more a stock, than a brace. This is not what I wanted so I sent it back. I think a better design would be a grip mounted brace that extended back underneath your arm with just a padded wire frame for support. This would almost nearly eliminate the possibility of shoulder firing, and be much more comfortable. I know a lot of people are using the Sig brace, but this is just my take on the whole situation.
DaveGinOlyJanuary 12, 2015, 1:58 pm
An excellent discussion. I appreciate your emphasis on “intent.”
However, concerning your remarks while discussing the FN FAL handgun, the ATF hasn’t made ridiculous rulings about vertical foregrips. Its rulings are entirely consistent with the law – it’s the LAW that’s ridiculous. Sometimes we look at the ATF as the bad guys (and sometimes quite rightly), but the ATF is saddled with the difficult job of interpreting ridiculous laws and doing so consistently in spite of the obvious idiocy of those laws. We can thank Congress for the idiocy, the ATF is not to blame.
brandoJanuary 12, 2015, 12:31 pm
I build a pistol for my grandpa.the reason i went with 7″ upper cause its lighter and easier for him to handle.i place a sig brace because its legal and it helps grandpa control it and takes some recoil away.seems anymore theres hundreds of youtubevideos laughing and joking bout sig brace saying its only used for a stock.i spent $100 way to muchand gonna hate to be stuck with it if atf change there
mind!@$$#!!!
Mike…you are sooo right. Case in point: my neighbor decided that he would “give-away” pint samples of his home brewed booze…as long as there was money left in his daughters piggy bank for her next birthday. BATFE and the IRS still put him in prison for 5.
Long winded but I agree completely. One thing however, you say many times is that you are not a lawyer, great that makes two of us. Being a lawyer gives you no special insight into the law. Lawyers have no special privileges when it comes to expressing how the law is to be interpreted. Our laws are based upon a REASONABLE understanding, not some hidden message only a cypher mastermind can figure out. A lawyer can ADVISE you about the law, but then so can any judge, veteran police officer, or in this case you! In a case where you think you might BREAK THE LAW it would be ADVISABLE for the individual to READ the law and make his/her OWN DECISION based upon what it says and what you are doing. This is COMMON SENSE, know what you are doing is legal or don’t do it! Seriously, take some personally RESPONSIBILITY and KNOW what you are doing is right. After all YOU will be the person going to jail not the lawyer. Soap box relinquished.
DaveGinOlyJanuary 12, 2015, 1:47 pm
You are correct about the law, but even judges regularly disagree about what it means. How can it even be possible for a reasonably intelligent person to know whether or not he is complying with the law if those (allegedly) most educated about it don’t have an absolute understanding of it?
SlimJanuary 6, 2015, 12:40 pm
Answer is no. According to Tom Grisham.
skinner53January 12, 2015, 9:40 am
The biggest problems are these morons putting crap on the net thinking they are cute trying the circumvet the law .
And then there are the clowns that build suppressors in the garage or screw an oil filter on the muzzle using an over priced thread adapter that they bought on ebay — knock it off morons your are gonna bring unnecessary heat
I disagree with your BATFE remarks. Please read BATFE’s March 4, 2006 letter on forward verticle grip on a handgun. “IT” Is their position on the subject. It been nine years and IT has not been incorperated into the Laws and Codes that THEY are tasked to enforce. Only two court case on this. One Case has no internet footprint and can not be found. On the second Case a Magistrate was going to Rule against ATF’s interpretation; so BATFE had the Prosecutor drop the Charge. BATFE states they don’t recognize the Magistrates Written decission (installation of a verticle forward grip on a pistol with a rifled bore does not un-make a pistol and make an AOL. Per the NFA: Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
Strange how that works!
Great informational vid. Delibertly simple and should be understood by all interested people. Examples and demonstrations were the perfect “Go -No go” gauge for this topic. After Sig gets through their current flash suppressor or silencer Court debate with BATFE, we need to have them develope a pistol forward monopod stand for extended bench shooting. WELL DONE MAC
What do you have stuck in your belt – ? Looks like a 5.7…?
I have a Sig 556 pistol, then I ordered a brace from Sig. As soon as I saw it and tried to put it on my arm I realized the only way to comfortably shoot it was from the shoulder. In my opinion, there are much better ways to manufacture a brace. The hard rubber wrap around portion was very uncomfortable on my arm and nearly hit my upper arm. The inside rear edges of the brace are sharp. The whole thing to me, looked as if it was more a stock, than a brace. This is not what I wanted so I sent it back. I think a better design would be a grip mounted brace that extended back underneath your arm with just a padded wire frame for support. This would almost nearly eliminate the possibility of shoulder firing, and be much more comfortable. I know a lot of people are using the Sig brace, but this is just my take on the whole situation.
An excellent discussion. I appreciate your emphasis on “intent.”
However, concerning your remarks while discussing the FN FAL handgun, the ATF hasn’t made ridiculous rulings about vertical foregrips. Its rulings are entirely consistent with the law – it’s the LAW that’s ridiculous. Sometimes we look at the ATF as the bad guys (and sometimes quite rightly), but the ATF is saddled with the difficult job of interpreting ridiculous laws and doing so consistently in spite of the obvious idiocy of those laws. We can thank Congress for the idiocy, the ATF is not to blame.
I build a pistol for my grandpa.the reason i went with 7″ upper cause its lighter and easier for him to handle.i place a sig brace because its legal and it helps grandpa control it and takes some recoil away.seems anymore theres hundreds of youtubevideos laughing and joking bout sig brace saying its only used for a stock.i spent $100 way to muchand gonna hate to be stuck with it if atf change there
mind!@$$#!!!
Mike…you are sooo right. Case in point: my neighbor decided that he would “give-away” pint samples of his home brewed booze…as long as there was money left in his daughters piggy bank for her next birthday. BATFE and the IRS still put him in prison for 5.
Long winded but I agree completely. One thing however, you say many times is that you are not a lawyer, great that makes two of us. Being a lawyer gives you no special insight into the law. Lawyers have no special privileges when it comes to expressing how the law is to be interpreted. Our laws are based upon a REASONABLE understanding, not some hidden message only a cypher mastermind can figure out. A lawyer can ADVISE you about the law, but then so can any judge, veteran police officer, or in this case you! In a case where you think you might BREAK THE LAW it would be ADVISABLE for the individual to READ the law and make his/her OWN DECISION based upon what it says and what you are doing. This is COMMON SENSE, know what you are doing is legal or don’t do it! Seriously, take some personally RESPONSIBILITY and KNOW what you are doing is right. After all YOU will be the person going to jail not the lawyer. Soap box relinquished.
You are correct about the law, but even judges regularly disagree about what it means. How can it even be possible for a reasonably intelligent person to know whether or not he is complying with the law if those (allegedly) most educated about it don’t have an absolute understanding of it?
Answer is no. According to Tom Grisham.
The biggest problems are these morons putting crap on the net thinking they are cute trying the circumvet the law .
And then there are the clowns that build suppressors in the garage or screw an oil filter on the muzzle using an over priced thread adapter that they bought on ebay — knock it off morons your are gonna bring unnecessary heat