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httpv://youtu.be/GQljEg6-ZvA
This is the PCP company video and as you can see, they are shooting it in full-auto machineguns with no sticking and no cooking off rounds. We hope it works out for them and wish them the best.
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 PCP Ammunition is the polymer cased ammo company that seems to be actually coming to market. We have all seen a lot of ideas come and go, but they have a product that appears to have worked the bugs out of the plastic disposable rifle ammo case. It saves 30-50% of the weight, and could potentially improve performance and accuracy.  Ben Becker, our resident US Army Sniper, was able to test the .308 Winchester ammo at Media Day at the Range, SHOT Show 2012. It worked great in this suppressed rifle.  It is really difficult, however, to judge a revolutionary product like this based on a half a dozen rounds at a public media event.  The test ammo for Media Day had no headstamps and was clearly an evaluation product made by hand. The people running and representing PCP were real gun guys though, not a bunch of smoke and mirrors marketing types, so the product is worth reporting on and it could be something we see in the market this year. |
By Paul Helinski
Sometimes when you try a new product you are left with more questions than answers, and that is what it was like at SHOT Show Media Day at the Range 2012 when we bumped into PCP Ammunition, the plastic cased ammo people. It seemed to shoot good, but plastic ammo is too good to be true, right?
Set up with a .300 Winchester Magnum  and a suppressed .308 Winchester, PCP Ammo didn’t seem to have a lot of stock with them to shoot, and they wouldn’t let us keep a fired case, but the stuff seemed to work, and it worked well. Some of the questions people had were:
- How does it work full-auto?
- Will the rounds cook off?
- Do they stick after the gun heats up?
These are the questions you would probably ask if you were there, and the answers were pretty simple. No, they don’t cook off unless a brass case would normally cook off under the same chamber temperature. They run perfect full auto, and no, they don’t stick in most situations in the testing done so far by PCP ammo, part of this being, according to a company rep her on the blog comments, that the rounds will cook off in a machinegun before the melt temp of the plastic.
We didn’t, however, get to actually see any of this testing. What we saw were a few hundred rounds of what were most likely hand-made shells, that worked well in the rifles we shot. The rest remains to be determined down the road. We have included the company video here, embedded, that shows the rounds being fired in machineguns and rapid fire, with no failures, but we can’t attest to the legitimacy of the footage.
The thinking behind plastic cased ammo is that it reduces weight by 30-50%, thereby allowing the warfighter to carry more ammo for the same weight. According to the guys at PCP, and I have to say, they were true gun guys, not a bunch of slick marketing types, they finally hit a formula that stands up to the pressure and heat of full-auto fire in a battle situation, while retaining and even improving performance and accuracy for the cartridge and for the rifle.   It all seemed legitimate, and it seemed like plastic cased ammo could indeed be one of those new things that everyone would be talking about all year.
How would plastic cased ammo improve performance and accuracy? Well, this is the thinking, though I have no idea how you would ever prove the theory, even if you could prove the results.  Plastic obturates at a much lower pressure than brass. That much is of course true. Obturating, if you are unfamiliar with this term, is what it is called when metal is squished to a certain shape. The shape in the case of a fired round of ammo is the chamber of the rifle.  The first thing that happens when you fire a cartridge is the brass of the case expands to the dimensions of the chamber, which are always slightly bigger than the SAAMI specifications of the cartridge. This is why you have to resize fired cases if you want them to fit any rifle again, and no two chambers are exactly the same, even if you cut them with the same cutter on the same computer controlled CNC machine.
The plastic case, by obturating quickly, requires less of the cartridge to be used up on obturation before sending the bullet down the barrel. That leaves more energy  to get the bullet going, making it travel faster. And because plastic obturates so easily, it does so more uniformly than brass, which makes it “let go” of the bullet on obturation more evenly, which delivers a more stable bullet, thereby increasing accuracy.
… or so the thinking goes.
Ben Becker, our resident US Army Sniper, got to shoot the suppressed .308 on Media Day, and we were only shooting at steel plates, but he did find it easy to hit consistently, and he did feel like the gun was “right there” as it should be.  The short run production of PCP Ammo right now is using Sierra MatchKing bullets, and they hope to have some hunting ammo out soon as well using Sierra GameKing and Berger Match VLD Hunting bullets.   When asked if the cases were reloadable, the answer was, “officially we have to say no,” so take that for what it is worth. There did appear to be a brass base to PCP cases, and that would probably have to be resized even if the plastic had enough memory to return to form.
We had hoped to track down PCP Ammo on the SHOT Show floor, but didn’t see them in the directory and didn’t bump into the booth at the show. It could be that they weren’t able to get a booth this year as there is a waiting list for exhibitors and a lot of companies didn’t make the cut to get in. Media Day was all we were able to get to see of them, and there are definitely more questions than answers.  This is one of those “we’ll believe it when we see it” things in the gun world that we may see in the market and we may not see.  Hopefully PCP Ammo will stay in touch and get us some testing product when they are ready for prime time.
Until then, it’s a good story anyway, and we wish them the best.
It’s great to see this useful post on dog training.
I have a concern however. How do you train a younger
dog?
.308 Winchester 168 Grain Sierra MatchKing HPBT – 20 Round box / Polymer Cased Ammunition
$39.99 / Box of 20 Rounds
That seems like it’s expensive. Seems to me there is no other reason to use this ammo than it might be lighter than Brass. But if you’re not on duty, I can’t see any reason to use it other than it’s new and at $40 a box of 20, not on my list until they stop making brass.
I have a lot of 7.62 plastic rounds they are available from time to time. they are blue and the bullet is made right into the case. it has a (brass?) base to hold the primer. they will go through 1/2″ plywood at 10 yards. they are VERY loud
Only rifle loads?? Nothing for us handgun shooters?… 9mm, 38spl, 45acp… Hey.. Remember… Just because out tubes are not as long.. We still deserve some consideration as well…
20 years ago I got East German 7.62 x39 black plastic bullets in brass casing. http://www.sherviews.com
reloading the round seems to be the question of the day. but in my opinion it would not be able to reload this round through traditional methods, and maybe it is a ploy at ending the reloading industry all together?
Plastic ammo casing. Makes me want to cringe to a point. Are they re loadable?
Besides, the gun community has been working on a case-less round. The powder is the case. Binders are used to maintain the powder’s shape as the casing, all the while holding the primer, but too certain how the projectile is being held in place. I can surmise that the bullet is tethered to possibly the primer or possibly a tether runs the length from the projectile thru but not connected to the primer.
For the record it is Dardick, not Darden. I also have one or two of their Trounds.
I wonder at what temperature the plastic that is used begins to deform? An automatic’s barrel gets hot.
This looks interesting. Is PCP going to make pistol ammunition?
Something I can feed my Glock that won’t jam every third round and is cheaper than brass, please.
Is the plastic soft enough that it will shave off small pieces of plastic when it is being chambered and ejected? I am thinking after two or three hundred rounds through my AR and the chamber is really hot…
What is the base made of? Steel? Aluminum?
Shooting cal. .50 BMG plastic cartridges is very impressive. I’ll looking for your cal. .223 ammunition for my AR to give it a try!
A number of years ago, when I worked as a supervisor at a very big range, for a very big police department here on the east coast, we had a visitor stop by with some 223 ammo for us to try. We were told about the enormous savings that this ammo would offer over brass cased ammo. He further stated that the military was or had been using this ammo in M249’s. He had my attention. The ammo was labeled “PCA” Spectrum. The box also had Natec- Made in the USA on it. The head stamp was 223 Rem / MTS. In less than 30 minutes, I had thanked our visitor for stopping by and had informed him that the ammo was not suitable for our needs.
My first concern was heat. During sustained fire exercises, we would often encounter cook-offs and projectile disintegration when using milspec frangible or soft points.
Having this in mind, I loaded a 30 rd mag with brass cased ammo and another with poly cased. The brass cased ammo was expended on full auto with a single squeeze of the trigger. The mag containing the poly cased was loaded, a burst of ten was fired, the trigger was released, and the mag removed. While continuing to aim down range, I counted to 25,and then pulled back the charging handle. As I looked into the ejection port, I discovered the rear metal portion of the poly case with stringy melted plastic attached to it, along with a healthy dose of unburned powder deposited in the receiver.
Back in my office, I disassembled the rifle and attempted to clear the chamber of melted plastic, unburned powder, and projectile. The projectile was removed with a cleaning rod, but the plastic remained firmly attached. Brushing, solvent, broken shell extractor all failed to remove the melted polymer. I wound up using a dummy cartridge heated over a gas burner and repeatedly chambered and extracted it till it burned out the remaining plastic.
Are PCA or PCP related in the past or present? I don’t know. They do seem to share the same concept. Does PCP have a super polymer that doesn’t melt at the temperatures encountered during sustained fire? I don’t know that either. Brass has indisputably passed the test of time.
My job was to make sure that whatever was placed into the hands of men and women, who placed themselves in harms way, would not fail. If you are considering using this ammo, test it. Subject it to the worst conditions that you feel you may encounter and then add a little more for an extra measure of security. That’s the way it should be with anything you may have to stake your life on.
We have no relationship with the former company you speak of. We developed this from the ground up. We have done M4 tests through 10 mags on full auto without problems. We have a completely different manufacturing process that attaches the head of the case. I believe the previous attempts tried to glue the head on which was prone to failure at elevated temps. You cannot removed the head on ours without completely destroying the cartridge. In closed bolt guns such as assualt rifles, high temps are not an issue because the round cooks off and ejects several hundred degrees before the polymer begins to break down. Open bolt guns such as the MK46/MK48 and the like don’t subject the cartridge to the heat of the chamber until firing thus not in the chamber long enough to matter. Hopefully I cleared up some of your concerns. I look forward to any feedback from users once they test on their own to help continue our product improvement.
Thanks for the reply Tony. I’m glad to hear that these are “freshly engineered”. The melting issue was the greatest concern with the PCA rounds. It wasn’t glue melting, it was the entire polymer case. It created a real mess. In a training environment, a failure was an exercise in transitioning to a sidearm, and then a malfunction clearing drill. In the field, a catastrophic failure could have dire consequences. You can bet I’ll be trying these cartridges out if I happen to cross paths with any. Good luck to you and with PCP’s endeavors.
If you can’t reload it and you end up with piles of plastic garbage, I see no advantages over formally proposed caseless ammo. Whatever happened to that promissing technology? I think that ammo companies should invest in great ideas, not any idea.
I actually still have some red cased PCA/Natec 223 rounds laying around. They seem to have shot OK. At the time they were released, you could buy a case of mil surplus 223 for just over $100 so this stuff never had a chance on the open market. If the price is right and it runs at least as well as steel case, I’d consider it.
I liked the idea of different colored cases for different bullets. I hope they get it to market.
I do not know that I would need to buy P.C.P. ammo, however I do know of high temp. plastic bricks used in anneling furnices, also have used sillicon sealant that withstands oxy cutting torch, it formed a light coate of grey powder on the surfice but could not melt it. So yes it can work well, next will come ceramic?
One subject that I noted was not mentioned is the possibility of the plastic being formulated to include bio-degradability. That sure would assist in the cleanup problem at some outdoor ranges that I have used. Even with the level of education we preport to enjoy in this country it seem as tho many can not understand the signs posted pertaining to picking up the ‘brass’.
Our polymer is not bio-degradeable due to the need for long term storage. It is recyclable though. We are working through these processes ourselves to try to eliminate waste. Has not been a primary concern for most users but the military shares your concern.
I look forward to testing this product for my agency. I can see a lot of potential benefits if it works out.
Its great to see all the talk about our new ammo. I can understand those who are concerned and appreciate those that are supportive. Though I don’t get to respond on all the forums, this one seems to have a big and knowledgeable following. First I would like to say, this technology is not based on any previous attempts. We developed this from the ground up for one reason, to reduce the burden on our Warfighters. An unintended benefit was that we have seen improved accuracy when shooting. Second, we cannot recommend reloading for liability reasons, but we do reload internally during testing without issue. Current loads do not work though because we have slightly less capacity therefore increasing pressure with loads used for brass cases.
We are not part of a conspiracy to eliminate brass ammunition, nor do I expect that this product will replace brass except for a small portion of the user community. We plan to have competitive shooters using it this year and it will be on the market in 308 Win around March.
I would also like to correct something in the article. Our ammunition will cook-off much like brass ammo will in machine gun fire in hot chambers. This will happen at a slighter longer duration due to the insulating properties of the polymer, but will cook off. That actually is why we don’t have issues with melting cases in hot chambers. Our polymers can withstand temperatures well above cook-off, therefore will cook-off and eject well before high temps cause any issues. We have successfully tested our ammunition in assault rifles, Mk46 and M249s as well as MK48 in 308 caliber. Our only issue remaining is extreme cold shooting. We do not recommend shooting below neg(-)15F right now, though we are working to get that to a lower temp. We are continuing to improve our products and look forward to feedback from users on their results as the ammunition reaches out to the public. Please give it a chance as we realize change is never easy. Thanks again for all the interest and don’t hesitate to contact us.
Tony Padgett- PCP Ammunition Company
Thanks for stopping by Tony. Over 20k people will read this today so it was worth your time to respond. When you are ready for market we will be happy to test your accuracy claims.
Great. Thanks.
Tony:
You wrote: “We are not part of a conspiracy to eliminate brass ammunition . . . ”
I highly doubt that the posters to this thread sit at their computers, cowering in fear that the president of PCP Ammo is some hunch-backed mad scientist cloaked in black, wringing his pasty hands in gleeful anticipation, calling to his minions,
“Rrrrrelease ze plastic ammo! Ve vill make zem our slaves! Mwahahahahahahaha!”
The posters fear the politicians and lawyers who might use the production of plastic brass (as they have used every other reason, excuse and fantasy) as a reason, excuse or fantasy to restrict the rights of U.S. citizens.
Is there any way PCP Ammo might position and market their ammo in such a way as to protect and enhance the freedom of both the users of plastic ammunition and your freedom to sell it?
I wish you much success.
Jacob Potts
Tony,
Thanks for taking the time to share some more insight about your company and their noble goals. I don’t believe it ‘conspiracy theory’ to consider down stream effects of disruptive technology.
While I do laud your efforts to enhance our warfighters, there are entire industries, that can be affected (positively or negatively) through no malice or ill-will on your part.
We look forward to your fulfillment of the American Dream, inventing a better mousetrap and selling a ton of ’em, and appreciate your consideration and attention to some of the concerns identified in this forum and others.
All the Best, Thomas
Don’t listen to all the nay-sayers out there arguing it’s a bad idea because brass is fine. As a US Marine, I can say that if these rounds work, this is a great idea and could be a game changer. If you can get the attention of the military enough to get a contract with these you’d make a lot of grunts very happy. Brass is great for civilians, and they can keep using it, but anyone who’s ever been issued a M-249 SAW or carried an M-240 can tell you making ammo lighter would be a huge benefit. Keep up the good work!
We already have non-reloadable cartridges – they have either steel or aluminum cases. I don’t see this as being a problem as of yet. i was involved with a study to produce caseless ammunition for the Vulcan in an attempt to reduce weight of ammunition carried on aircraft. I also was going to reduce the problem with ejection of the brass cases and where they went – e,g, The B-58 that ran into the cases.
We need to worry more about who wins the 2012 presidential election and who is put on the sepreme court and how they vote to keep the 2nd ammendment rights of all of us that shoot for fun and enjoyment.
What ever happened to the B-58?
What ever happened to the “caseless” ammo idea?
Talk about reinventing the mouse trap. There aint nothing wrong with brass cases, and their quality continues to improve. What is there really to gain? Sure, if they are lighter, the American combatant can carry more, but this increases the amount of bulk he carries. One can reduce the amount of pressure it takes to obturate a case by annealing it as well. Not in a hurry to try them here.
Just curious about the plastic stability in areas where the temperature can be extreme i.e. Hot & Humid, extremely cold and damp…?
Thanks, Dennis
To continue pulling on a particular thread…it absolutely DOES matter what our military does with its ammo selection. If the DOD decides to outfit our guys with plastic non-reloadable ammo, then the brass supply chain to civilian markets gets severely impacted through the reduction and lost of DRMO sales.
In addition to that, if the DoD decides that this is the way to go, then LC will retool its plants to meet this demand, buy this company and their IP, and then retool themselves for high-volume military demand. In 10 years, brass casings could be outlawed by the EPA and then civilians may only get military-grade rounds…which may include serial numbers and other identifiers etc etc. Hundreds of firearms could immediately be obsolesced due to a change in ammunition supply.
If you don’t think other manufacturers’ won’t jump on this band wagon, consider this. What is the greatest threat to an ammunition manufacturer? Reloaders. The more people reload the less ammo they buy. So why wouldn’t an ammo manufacturer PREFER to make a use once product? They would be stupid to miss an opportunity like this
This is a real slippery slope and I sure hope this company knows what they are doing. This is a disruptive technology that could easily be used to reduce our Rights.
“…when they outlawed lead bullets (based on bogus data), I did nothing…when they required re-loaders to be licensed ammunition manufacturers, I did nothing…when they told me that I could only buy use once plastic casings…I realized we were screwed…”
Um, I hesitate to say that reloaders ARE NOT an ammo manufacturers greatest threat. Many of the ammo manufacturers are already making the components reloaders use. Go to MidwayUSA or Natchez Shooters, or any other major ammo retailer and you will see a listing of components provided by major ammo manufacturers. Now, I will agree with you that if they had their way they would shut reloaders out. After all, reloading was NOT something they came up with. The major ammo manufacturers had to adapt what was then a cottage industry which is now major segment of the firearms industry, RELOADING.
I also agree with you that it could be a disruptive technology based on the fact that if this stuff works, they can overnight leave the reloaders with what little brass is already on the market.
Last, I like your end quote. I appreciate that most of all.
Army spent @$12M and Navy @$5M in 1995-2007, and as inferred by what TIM points out above, got taken to cleaners on various successive contractors working to develop plastic rounds in highly observed and documented research of .223, .308 and .300WM. U.S. Attorneys in Louisianna, New Jersey and New York got involved. Results were fractured/shattered cases in receivers and barrels, jams consistently with explosive results sometimes, failures to feed, failures to fire, failures to eject, etc… The true believers continue to buy this technology from “former” owners, passing to new investors, and it seems the problems are then repeatedly occurring. Having said that above, the unknown new company you overview that was at the SHOT Show may have a better chance, as some unknown things may perchance have improved in powders and plastics since 2007, and I wish them the best as lighter ammo is the military holy grail—but it will not be reloadable (if you understand physics and chemistry of any explosive burn inside a plastic shaft) at any foreseeable point (but being reloadable is immaterial to military).
i’m with the whole reloadablity thing. i’d rather use brass tried and true and not worry about if i can’t find it.the earth will reclaim it. this might be something the goverment could use, let the military litter the country side in some other country and leave them nothing to reload.
I talked with them at SHOT. Two things: For the military it MIGHT be a weight saver (But looking at the ton of gear they carry nowadays including weighting a 71/2 pound AR up to 14 pounds with acessory gear and the huge packs and body armor, etc, does the weight of 300 brass cases vs plastic matter that much?). And more significantly for civilian purposes, this case cannot be reloaded I was told–“unreliable” neck tension after the first firing.
Jim, the answer to your question of the weight of the ammo for the military would have to be, yes it does make a difference! im in the military and carry the 240B, which according to the Army field manual for the weapon states that the 240B is 27.6 lbs. UNLOADED! And yes i DO CARRY this weapon, its not mounted on a humvee, and i carry aprox. 600 rounds on top of the belt already loaded in the weapon, my assistant gunner carries the rest of my ammo, so for him and I it would be great to have ammo that weighs less! Tho i will say yes, we carry alot, so at no surprise I try to lighten my load any way possible short of carrieing less ammo. Ammo is my most important peice of equipment, my fellow soldiers depend on my 240, I keep it spotless so that if things go bad I know that my weapon will do its job, and i can do mine by supressing the enemy. If the ammo weighed less then that would give me the ability to carry more ammo. So beleive it or not the weight of ammo is actually something that should be looked at. The only thing thats mounted on the weapon is a sling (DUH) and a mid range scope, though the scope is actually crap (issued with weapon and doesnt make a difference) I dont use it.
Anybody remember the “Tround”? ‘nough said!
I have a Darden .38 round here that I picked up in the mid-50s. The pea green plastic hull is triangular and is quite bulky. It fed out of a 20 (?) round magazine. The Darden Co made a pistol, too. It was only around for a few years and then went the way of the 3 wheel automobile. Which, by the way, was also triangular.
I for one do not believe this to be a panacea. I believe this to be “Big Brother” in another attempt at gun grabbing. Reloading? Forget it. The word has not been officially used.
My big question is how will this stuff hold up over the long haul. I’ve personally seen too many plastics begin to deteriorate after only 10 or 20-years. Now expose it to gun oils and solvents used to claen a gun, and how long will it hold up? I’ve seen (almost 70-year old) WWII vintage brass cartridges perform just fine.
Tom L.
That might be the idea. to stop stock piling. Weren’t they thinking of it with primers that ‘expired’
Expose ANY ammo to gun oils and solvents and you will have problems.
Probably just another in a string of companies to go down this road and fail.
Anyone remember PCA Spectrum ammo?
It sounds like a great idea if it works. Id try it in my shop if it works and is priced right
This is not the first time polymer cased ammunition has been released to the public. PCA/Natec put some .223 ammunition out back around 2005 with less than stellar reviews. Hopefully the rounds from PCP will not have the same issues as the PCA ammunition.
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/access.html (review is at the bottom of the page)
http://www.defensereview.com/problems-with-natec-pca-spectrum-polymer-cased-ammo/
Uh, Tim,
there aren’t many things the Gov’t gets right when it comes to R&D. That’s why they mostly leave it up to private industry.
Cost? I want to know about reloadability!
Let’s be green that is, in saving money as well as the raw materials.
We would not want to litter the landscape with plastic if it can be reused.
If we can’t reload then “Big Brother” will legislate when and how much we will shoot.
I for one will not fall into that trap.
I kind of agree with you on that!
I think you meant obturate with a ‘t’ an dnot obdurate with a ‘d.’
That word is spelled “obTurate”. No D.
Read the article again. The word is spelled correctly.
It was fixed about the same time the comments came in a few people caught it.
I am looking forward to get 60 or so rounds to run through my AR. I hope it works as well as shown and is less expensive them brass. But, only if it works as advertised. đŸ™‚
+1 to this. Would love to see how this operates in a hot chamber.
I agree Frank, but a whole lot more testing is needed. As for pricing, well, we all know how that works. If this new stuff is as great as the company claims, i’m sure the price will go up, maybe even hire than brass ammo.
Somebody’s got to pay for all that R&D. So this stuff is NOT going to be cheaper than brass. Also, based on economics, if you are already paying $XX for brass, why not charge the amount you are already comfortable paying??
You must be on PCP to fire this round.
The Feds have been working on plastic brass? , since the 70s . I worked at an injection molding facility that ran batches of them for some months , changing the recipe? after each test round . They finally gave up on the idea , at least for the time . Very Light and a super idea , lets hope this new one works , even though it looks a bit more heavy then the style we worked on .