One things is for sure about the .357 Sig cartridge: velocity makes a big difference. It’s tough to find a .357 Sig load that doesn’t expand, even after encountering barriers.
.357 Sig is my favorite pistol cartridge. I don’t really know why, I just think it’s cool. Well, seriously speaking, it is a screamer with great street performance and the bottleneck design helps not only velocity, but feeding reliability.
Developed by a pas de deux featuring Sig Sauer and Federal Ammunition in 1994, it’s loosely based on a necked down .40 S&W cartridge – conceptually anyway. The idea of .357 Sig is to launch a .355 caliber bullet form an autoloading pistol a few hundred feet per second faster than a 9mm cartridge can.
With that said, consider these interesting facts about the .357 Sig…
It’s like a .357 Magnum, but not really.
You’ll hear descriptions of the caliber like “it offers .357 Magnum capability in an autoloader that’s not a Coonan.” That’s partially true, if you’re talking about a .357 Magnum firing a 125 grain bullet. DoubleTap Ammunition markets 125 grain .357 Sig loads that clock 1,525 feet per second from a 4 ½ inch barrel. That’s about 645 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, and within .357 Magnum territory for a 125 grain projectile. The ‘not really’ part comes into play when you consider 158 grain .357 Magnum loads. DoubleTap also produces a 158 grain .357 Magnum load that achieves 1,540 feet per second from a 6-inch barrel revolver. That’s about 832 foot-pounds.
It’s like a 9mm on steroids, but not really.
Not many 9mm loads would expand like this after passing through a pine board.
The .357 Sig uses a .355 inch diameter bullet like the 9mm, not a .357 diameter bullet like the .357 Magnum and .38 Special. While the bullet diameter is the same as the wonder nine, most .357 Sig projectiles are shaped differently. To take maximum advantage of the limited case neck real estate in the bottleneck portion of the cartridge case, many .357 Sig projectiles do not have elongated noses like 9mm designs. The bullet body, or bearing surface, will be long enough so that when seated to the proper depth, every bit of the case neck will be in contact with the projectile. Remembering that the overall cartridge length still needs to remain in spec, this means the nose will generally have more of a blunt profile.
Some 9mm bullets will work and some won’t. If you reload, be careful about this as bullets with the wrong profile are susceptible to pushing back into the case during feeding or recoil, thereby generating dangerous pressure levels.
It’s based on the .40 S&W, but not really.
The internet says you can make brass from .40 S&W brass. I’m also sure you can find someone on the internet with instructions to convert a 1970 Gremlin into a gas-powered vegetable juicer. Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
It doesn’t look like much, but the cartridge case length difference between .357 Sig and .40 S&W is enough to worry about. Don’t try to make your own brass from .40 S&W cases.
For starters, the .40 S&W cartridge case length is normally .850 inches while the .357 Sig is not only bottlenecked, but measures .865 inches. Sizing a .40 S&W case to create a .357 Sig bottleneck may stretch it a bit, but generally not enough. More importantly, there are other case differences, like pressure. We’ll talk about that next.
Finding a productive use for a Dremel tool around guns, I cut some .357 Sig and .40 S&W cases in half. Recognizing that there are differences from manufacturer to manufacturer, and dimensions will always vary a bit, I did find that the case walls were thicker on the Sig cartridges. Measuring about half way up the case, the .40 S&W brass was about .010 inches while the .357 Sig brass was about .015 inches at the same point. I know, not scientific, but I was curious and wanted to use my Dremel powers for good.
The .357 Sig feels the pressure.
According to the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI), the average pressure for the .40 S&W is 35,000 psi. The .357 Sig has an average pressure of 40,000 psi. That extra 5,000 psi is a lot of mojo to be fooling around with. To put that in perspective, a scuba tank usually holds between 2,900 and 4,400 psi and you saw what one of those did to Jaws, right? The moral of the story is while it’s technically possible to make something resembling .357 Sig brass from a .40 S&W case, don’t do it.
The .357 Sig head spaces on the case mouth, or maybe the case shoulder.
Don’t let the caliber name fool you, a number of gun manufacturers make compatible guns: Glock, Smith & Wesson and of course, Sig Sauer.
Here’s a bit of minutia sure to start a reloading room fight.
By the way, if you don’t know what the process of “head spacing” is, think of it as as the relationship between the part of a cartridge that jams into a part of the chamber to set the exact distance between the bottom of the case and the breech face. In other words, all of this makes sure that the firing pin is the correct distance from the cartridge and that the cartridge fits in the closed chamber without moving back and forth more than it’s supposed to.
In a straight wall semi-automatic cartridge like the 9mm, the edge of the cartridge mouth catches on a ledge in the barrel chamber to set head space. In many rifle cartridges, the shoulder of the cartridge pushes into the shoulder of the chamber to set head space. With the .357 Sig, according to a 2007 ruling of the C.I.P. governing body, that would be Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L’Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives for those of you who can read the menus at French restaurants, the cartridge head spaces on the shoulder. Of course, that’s all hypothetical. Where your .357 Sig pistol actually head spaces depends on your ammo and the chamber of your gun.
The .357 Sig can create black holes.
Just in case you were wondering, here’s what happens when you shoot a large glass jar of grape jelly with a Hornady Critical Defense .357 Sig round.
Through rigorous scientific process, advanced instrumentation and a large glass jar of grape jelly, I was able to prove that one can create a short-lived Welch’s Black Jelly Hole by shooting said jar with a .357 Sig 125 grain Speer Gold Dot projectile. While I did not have any gravitational lens or emitted radiation detection equipment handy, I think creation of a black hole is the only rational explanation for the complete disappearance of all grape jelly traces. I still have no explanation for the unwarranted anger of other shooters at the range who were mysteriously coated with a purple sticky substance.
Highway Patrols and the Secret Service love the .357 Sig
Reports from law enforcement use indicate that the .357 Sig caliber is exceptionally effective at stopping evil dudes from doing evil things. For some reason, law enforcement popularity seems to be limited to federal agencies and state highway patrol forces. The United States Secret Service uses the .357 Sig as do Federal Air Marshals. On the state side, if you include state police and highway patrol organizations, you’ll find .357 Sig cartridges in use in North Carolina, Texas, Mississippi, Delaware, Montana, Rhode Island, Virginia, Tennessee and New Mexico. You might also be interested to know that the Orlando Police Department relies on .357 Sig to protect the perimeter of one of our most important national assets – Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride at Disney World.
I’m not going to get into issues of whether the .357 Sig is “more betterer” than other cartridges – that’s always an argument with no possible clear outcome. It’s different, unusual, and apparently pretty darn effective on the street. That’s good enough for me.
For a comprehensive look at a variety of .357 SIG rounds extensively chronographed, check out the results from Ballistics By the Inch. They do rigorous, independent testing, and provide easy to read charts.
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You can’t ask for better expansion performance than this. These Speer Gold Dots passed through 2 layers of thick leather and 4 layers of fabric.
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While hard to tell with the naked eye, the .357 Sig case walls are thicker. A few thousandths matter.
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I got bored and shot these through a 5 pound bag of flour. They still expanded.
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I got even more bored and shot these through a 1/2″ thick plastic cutting board.
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Barnes TAC bullets make excellent .357 Sig projectiles. The larger length to weight ratio works to the caliber’s advantage.
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It’s still a pistol caliber and won’t pass through a properly rated kevlar vest.
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I love the round. It’s my EDC in a custom Glock 32. I thiink the round would’ve exploded in popularity had they named it 9mm MAGNUM. I know that no +P+++++++ 9mm ammo is gonna come close to the Underwood ammo I currently use.
All of you oldfarts need to get a .410 Tuffy…!
My Dept. Issues 357 Sig, 125 grain. I took it upon myself to test that round against 9mm +P+ 124 grn. I chose several non-scientific media. Water jugs, snacks of livestock feed, wet phone books, bales of petemoss, bags of sand, bags of dirt. In every case, my issues 357 Sig performed in depth of penetration AND expansion EXACTLY the same as the 9I’m +P+. Barrel length of the two guns were the same. So, since then I carry a Ruger SR9c daily.
One more pount: the tapered design of the 357 Sig cartridge offers no advantage to feeding reliability. That is a myth carried on
by the Yankee Marshal. It is simply not true. Research on your part will prove that point.
Now, all that said, I am an old man and my daily carry is either .44 or .45 in caliber. That is a whole other topic. Bottom line is that the 357 Sig and any .40 caliber handgun is silly and a lengthy topic for another time.
357 Mag sounds “cool” but , the recoil is unpleasant. Some 357 revolvers ( Coonan) sound like 12 ga. shot guns. Sw 686 is ok, but, short barrel 357 revolvers are painful to shoot. Sig 357 autos are not a pain in the hand to shoot. I started shooting 357 Mag revolvers in 1967. I own a P229 357 Sig and I love it. My P 220 10MM is a good shooter friendly, too. My P220 45 is a wonderful gun., also It shoots, great, on target, and is a pleasure to shoot.
I’ve spoken with many Ex LEO and a few Ex FBI agents at many gun shows and every one of them said the same thing the only reason the 9mm was chosen by the FBI and LEO was not because the 9mm was a better choice because they even said it wasn’t, it was because there agents and officers were only hitting their targets less than 30 percent or less of the time that’s right (look up the FBI report) which they the LEO and agents blamed on recoil of 40SW and 357Sig and with the 9mm you got less recoil for faster follow up shots and 2 extra rounds yet know the standard FBI and LEO 9mm round is now a 9+p or a +p+ round which know that so called recoil that they blamed on the 40sw and 357sig is worse with the 9MM then it was with the 40SW and 357SIG.
* ****So rather than offering better training for their officers and agents which all the Ex LEO and a few Ex FBI agents all said (which is common sense they and they the agents and officers do need if since they were only hitting their targets less than 30 percent or less of the time) they went back to the 9MM .
They all said the 40SW and 357 sig both were much better and a more powerful round at taking down people especially the 357 sig when loaded to where it originally was supposed to be (which originally was 1,450 -1500feet per second) for a 125 GR bullet they (ammo manufacturers) watered it down to 1350-1365FPS and it still out performs any 9mm +p and the 9MM +P+ round) and yet they the FBI and LEO still opted to go with the less powerful 9mm which is they all have said was under gunning there officers to a less lethal round.
And for all the people who keep saying with today’s new bullet technology and new powders the 9MM is now better and faster round, well guess I hate to break your bubble but that same great bullet technology and new powders also went into making the 40 SW, 357SIG and the 45ACP also a better round. Just look at how now there a making 45acp + p rounds and 40SW rounds going 50-75 FPS faster and that’s something that was never heard of ten-15 years ago.
Please watch the following 2 videos below in their entirety and just maybe if you can put politics aside you will understand how the 9mm though a good round and can get the job done but in most cases is not the perfect defense round and the 357sig and 40SW are truly a better round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4DsaBrohV0
Minute man ammo has a good deal on 357 Sig ammo.
Why was there no mention of the actual parent round the .357 SIG and the .40 cal were created from. The .40 cal brass should never be used because as you pointed out it is thinner. As it doesn’t need the strength of the 10mm which was where it came from. The .357 SIG on the other hand can be formed from the parent cartridge brass of the 10mm.
Just a couple of points:
500+ ft lbs and 1,500 FPS is definitely possible from a 9MM, using a 3.8″ to 5″ barrel. A Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph, I go the following results:
1) 9MM, 3.8″ barrel, using Buffalo Bore, +P+, 115 gr. projectile I got 1495 ft. lbs, 1507 ft. lbs and 1521 ft lbs. The avg. was ~1510 lbs.
2) My 10MM, using Buffalo Bore rounds, produced 864 Ft. lbs, with a velocity of 1526 ft. lbs.
Cheers!!
So the 9mm stats you just posted is the velocity correct?? Cause nobody gets 1500 ft lbs. Velocity is fps feet per second. Not ft lbs…… Cheers
I asked a THP officer here in Nashville why they switched to the sig-.357 year’s ago. He said they thought they would get better penetration through barrier’s like car doors if they had to shoot back at perp’s that chose to resist and fire at them. The general scuttlebutt was that if you had to shoot through a car door you had a better chance of stopping the perp shooting back at you. I don’t know if it’s true, but he said he wanted as much “bang for the” buck as he could get. after all, his life is on the line every day. I use a .10mm out of a glock for home defense, and I have some “moose-stopper-load’s” that send’s a .240 grain slug downrange at 1200 ft per second; big wadcutter. it’s like shooting a .4 special revolver, I think. since the national; stat’s for Police Officer’s show’s most shootings involved a distance of 7 to 10 ft in life and death shooting matche’s, I feel confident it will do the job in my home. I avoid going out at night in South Nashville and am a homebodyh.
I just bought a Glock 33 barrel for my Glock 27 & it’s fun to shoot after you get use to it. My question is, will the pressure wear down my 27? I need to make sure for I now use it as my EDC gun.
It’s my first choice of conceal carry. Thanks for better helping me understanding the ballistics of this caliber!
Good post! Accurate info and well written. The 357 sig is my choice for carry on my person and the 10mm or 45 super with a comp for travel. The 357 sig has superior terminal ballistics for wound channels and penetration. The loud blast can also have a psychological effect on the perp. It feeds reliably and doesn’t kick hard.
I think I’ll waste my time reading your lack of assertiveness or useful information article….
but not really.
I have used the 357sig round for years. I remember when the round was new, an armorer friend asked me my opinion about the recoil compared to the 40sw. I told him the same thing I feel now: I don’t notice that much difference (in a P229 and P226).The chosen loadings are more a factor than the sheer caliber. I use the HST bullet, which mitigates any expansion problem there might be, which I haven’t found. And if I owned any 40sw, I might shoot it in 40 for cost reasons, but I would ready it in 357sig.
I just got the NM 5.8″ barrel for my Browning HP in 40 S&W and shot factory hardball ammunition (Sig. and AE) – 125 gr. each. I supplied the pistol with 22 lb. recoil spring (2 lb over the stock one) and plastic buffer for the safety of the pistol. The recoil was very heavy and sharp. While shooting from the bench, I put a small bag, designed for working on computers, under my right elbow, otherwise it was painful every time the gun went off. The same level of recoil would make shooting typical short-barreled pistols (3.3-4.0”) nearly impossible (I am not very sensitive for recoil – I am routinely shooting 375 H&H from the same bench!). I fond the explanation of this recoil on the site ballisticsbytheinch.com: 357 Sig. from the 6” barrel produces the same energy as the 10 mm Auto – 600 to 700 foot-lb!!! My conclusion: if you shoot this round from a short barre, you produce fire-ball, if you shoot the same round from a long barrel, you produce significant ballistics, equal to 10 mm Auto or 357 Mag. The end of the story. My next step is reloading this round while head-spacing on the shoulder. Question: what is the reason to shoot snubbies if you do not plan for concealed carry???
What should the distance be from the case head to the bottom of the shoulder for a 357 sig. Thank you
In 2008 the CIP adopted revised documents for the 357 SIG that show the cartridge headspacing on the case mouth. This is consistent with the cartridge and chamber drawings in the ANSI/SAAMI American National Standards, which also clearly show the cartridge headspacing on the case mouth.
In my glock35 the recoil from the sig barrel comes straight back like an atilery? shot, whereas my 40 recoil goes up! Also the reset is so fast that sometimes I think the gun is jammed! I really love shooting the sig 357 rounds. It also shoots very straight, impressive accuracy for a pistol. It does make a sharp crack sound that makes other shooters look. I always have smiles on my face after I shoot it.
Have to agree with that. Had mine to the range last week. The gentleman in the lane next to mine asked that I stop shooting while he shot. He was flinching when my rounds went off. Oh, and BTW, these were relatively tame 8.2 grains of power pistol. Don’t have a chrony, but expect no greater than 1200 fps.
Adding much stronger recoil springs cause the slide to go forward faster than the magazine spring can keep up with. Either double them or find extra strong springs which may reduce capacity by one round.
Saying ALL Independence officers hate their pistol caliber is a bit of a blanket statement to apply to all officers, and can be seen as a bit disingenuous. Aside from the last two and a half years I lived most my life in Independence and for a time was married into the IPD community. As a result I have more than a few lifelong friends working as officers for the IPD. The brand of bullet/round that was used at least while I was in town was a bonded Speer Gold Dot. This round I personally had problems with as it tended to allow the bullet to slide back into the case with just one or two times of cycling a round into the chamber of my own pistols (All Glocks). I would end up tossing three or four rounds in the “to be used in the later to be reloaded box” in just the few boxes I bought. I thought these were top of the line rounds as they were being advertised and spoken highly of by many gun guru’s from many different gun magazines. Now I wonder what kind of kick back they received for their endorsement. When I spoke to a good friend that was an officer about the problems I was seeing he admitted the same problems with their ammunition. When I asked what they did with the defective rounds during qualifications, he said they shot all ammo as is. Meaning it didn’t matter if the bullet had fallen back and was resting on the powder. When I asked if he worried about over pressure he said that it wasn’t his firearm, but the departments. I found this to be exceptionally reckless and possibly dangerous at the time. Personally I research and test 357 Sig ammunition such as Cor Bon that has a unique deep cannelure process that almost guarantees bullet retention. Other than that most of my practice rounds are hand loads where the bullet rests on compressed powder (as Hornady specs suggest with a Blue Dot powder load I prefer). In my opinion the 357 Sig would have caught on and become more popular, yet there was a period of time where those same “gun guru’s” seemed to do nothing but trash the round and any potential it had to catch on by predicting it’s eventual fall from popularity in many different magazine articles. In a way I think those same writers ended up aiding in the drop in popularity and sales by influencing the very demographic that could have made that round far more of a success. It may seem bad to say this, however in my experience most people tend to be followers if they haven’t had actual experience to fall back on. This is where those gun rag writers tend to use their positions in irresponsible ways. As before, I wouldn’t put it too far out of the realm of possibility to think that these same “respected experts” may write what is in their interests to achieve perks along the way from rival companies, businesses, or corporations that would benefit from a product or competitors to fail. As far as ballistics and real world experiences, I would say it doesn’t matter what firearm or caliber is used because there are just way to many variables that come into play once the pistols leave the holsters. Unless your opponent is at the end of a tunnel or corridor and you happen to be completely calm like at a range, anything and everything will change the possibility of what was thought as a predictable outcome. Independence was using a Sig P220 in .45 before the switch to 357 Sig, and before the .45 it was a .357 magnum revolver. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the 357 Sig round at all. Unless a police department is actively seeking out opportunities to shoot people it’s also been my experience that actual hard, reliable data on ballistics in a true gun fight are to few and far between with as mentioned before way, way, too many variables to say how a round will work in defeating another human being in an actual life and death situation.
Good response. I had some of the same issues but bullet quality is getting better.
This has been my EDC since 2009. Glock 32 of course! Love it except for the cost of manufactured ammo as relates to HOLLOW POINTS. Target ammo from Winchester costs roughly 35 bucks with tax for 50 rounds which is still expensive in my world, which is why I reload. Using .355 Hornady bullets in 115, 124, 147 hollow points. Just remember that great attention MUST be used on this round. I have had quite a few rounds that wound not full chamber where the shoulder bulged just enough that it had to be manually hit to close and lock it. They fired fine. Have used .40 S&W cases resized and they did fine. My take on that is don’t load them to max! I use 4.5 grains of powder and there is less recoil. I don’t know the velocity or energy, but is very accurate! Just never use LEAD! Especially in the Glock factory barrels and at such velocity. FMJ or hollow points, either projectile rocks!
Do u flare, trim, or crimp ur 357 sig brass. If so why? How r ur reloads w 40 s&w brass ?
Wow. It’s been 3 years and I just saw your question. I trim my factory .357 Sig cases and use the expander die. And the crimp die (Hornady reloading dies for. 357 sig has 3 in their set). I do resize 40 S&W cases, as long as I use the cannulure bullets they are stable and Overall cartridge length is watched closely, they work fine.
Haven’t had any problems with primers blowing or cases cracking.
But I still prefer .357 cases.
It’s been a while since I reloaded them, so there might be 4 dies, not three. Just can’t remember…lol.
Haven’t been shooting it that much lately, and have just purchased a few factory loaded boxes.
I had loaded a good stock of them and needed to use them up.
The .40 cases are a little short but if you shoot them they do expand, but of course that makes them even thinner wall thickness. I only reload twice maybe. Then they are scrap. Thanks for asking.
(1) The 357 sig is a good round, no questions asked.
(2) Independence mo, PD carries 229 sig’s in 357 sig.
(3) The officers hate the round!
(4) There is to much recoil, it’s to sharp and heavy, for most of the smaller officers to handle!
(5) The noise is not good when the 357 sig is fired!
(6) The PD has had a real issue with pass through’s, when they have shot suspects!
(7) They have had several officer involved shootings, with pour results stopping the suspects!
(8) They have had only one fatal shooting, that I know of, and they fired more than one round, to do the job.
(9) Most of the shootings, the bullet passed completely through, and not stopping the suspect, this then required other
methods to stop the suspect!
(10) I do not know exact number involved shootings, for Independence Mo, I just know there has been several.
(11) I don’ t the kind of, type of, weight of or the brand of ammo, they use!
All that info has a big affect on how the bullets perform’s, in the suspect’s body!!!
(12) The 357 sig has to much power, in a urban area’s, where you risk hitting a bystanders.
(13) You would be better suited using a 40 cal, the have less recoil, less boom, better control by the officer’s, (big and small)
less risk of passing through the suspect, and happy officers’s when they shoot their guns!
(!4) The cost of ammo is a problem with the 357 sig is very high, compared to the 40 cal, for larger cities.
(15) The 357 sig is best suited for rural officers, and officers that don’t work in urban area’s!!!!!!
Less boom no..less recoil than .40 yes. Officers must not have been using proper expanding ammo….they used the round in .357s for years and were quite happy…hence the resurgence of a similar round in an auto loader.
Horseshit.
Wow. Really helps the discussion along!
I bought my .357 Sig Pro 2340 in 1995. Thousands of rounds through it. I may have been the been the first Officer to carry it on Duty in Mississippi at the Time. I own 3 in .357 Sig now, Sig 239, Smith and Wesson M&P, my 2340 and Soon customized bob Server 1911 in .357 Sig. Love this round never had a issue with any of my guns using this round. I think it’s this the best all around round for Law Enforcement and elf Defense.
I am sure hopeful this is not to be considered an “elf” defense gun, most guns are gonna be too big for their small hands, and the shorter arms wouldn’t control recoil well enough for it to be considered recommended. Not to mention that after all the newest gun control attempts firearms are not allowed here at the north poll.
“I think it’s this the best all around round for Law Enforcement and elf Defense.”
Is there a big problem in your area with Elves, that the power of a 357 SIG is needed?? lol
I’ve read several articles about PD’s and other agencies switching back to 9mm from 40S&W because not only control issues but premature wear on the handgun because of the increased pressures. Which they say is because both calibers are based off a 9mm frame. Are the 357 Sig frames beefier to help compensate fir the higher pressures?
Add Lawrence County, TN sheriff’s dept. and Lawrenceburg, TN city PD. Both carry full size Glock on duty and mid size for plain clothes.
Good article….gave safety as the important thing. My experience with the .357 Sig …if you are going to re-load, be very careful of the “crimping” process. Don’t over crimp or “BOOM”….trust me on this…. This caliber, I have found, can be VERY sensitive and with narrow acceptable variations as all bottle neck pistol cartridges have. Before you produce any great amount of rounds in this cartridge test the fit and head spacing with the first few and at least once every 10 as you make them. As with ALL re-loading….you should never use the “never exceed” amount of powder. I always use the “start load” weight and depending on the chart you are using…even that amount can be a little too much. The man was right….increasing pressures can be like sticking your hand in a blender. I’ve seen re-loaded .357 Sig rounds crack frames. I like an all metal gun for this round.
Good points! I would add bullet setback as something to be very careful of, and one of the biggest reasons NOT to make brass from .40 S&W cases. They will not provide adequate case neck tension. Maybe I like this caliber so much as it requires more “care” and is interesting to reload.
Neck tension is fine and no problems at with a nice taper crimp from .40 brass. It shoots great with .40 brass.
When I reload my 357 sigs I taper crimp just enough to take the bell out of the case then put a light crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Haven’t had any setback issues since.
Does the .357 Sig cause excessive wear and tear on the handguns that are chambered for it?
Try the 357 Sig from Underwood Ammo. . . .they’re the bomb! You can find them online.
OK guys, I’m sold. Actually I’ve been interested in the 357 Sig since it first came out, this article just gave it a little push. Speaking of the 9X25 Dillon, is anybody out there old enough to remember the 38/45 Clerke?
Is that something like the .38 Casull?
What the article fails to mention is the important fact that this round is extremely accurate. Much more so than .40 and 9. Recoil is also not as sharp as 40. Why more people are not using this cartridge is the fact that not many guns are chambered in it. Sig Sauer’s quality control of their handguns has plummeted in recent years and their 22x series pistols are horribly UN-ergonomic when it comes to many other makes and models that are out there. This is a superior cartridge to anything out in the defense realm right now and it is sad more manufacturers are not embracing it. The public needs to demand it more. Reloading it is not as complex as many have made it out to be and with many lead bullet manufacturers using lead alloys that can be safely shot at speeds over 1500 fps (faster than 357 SIG), you can load this caliber for cheap.
I carry a Beretta Cougar in .357 Sig. If it is good enough to protect the President, it is good enough to protect me.
This is a beretta i have not heard of… Where does one go to fondle one of these?
http://www.beretta.com/en/stoeger-cougar-8000/
Enjoy.
Same here…all metal frame, rotating barrel that eats recoil, and very accurate-and the feel in hand is like it was made for me-Beretta should have kept these in the lineup instead of handing over the production to Stoeger-finding an 8357(the Cougar 8000 Model Name for the 357 Sig) is becoming rarer by the day-people slept on this pistol AND this round;)
thanks interested as well in fondling a cougar( ah Beretta lol ) as well.
Cool article!
There’s no period in “357 Sig”. In Europe, the CIP call it the “357 Sig” (all caps).
Ron Carillo’s book “Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent” said that the number 357 is meant to allude to its similarity to the performance of 125 grain .357 Magnum cartridges from a 4″ barreled revolver. I infuriatingly have misplaced my copy of this book, but I recall he said SAAMI specifications technically call for a .356″ bullet. A look at the blueprint for case dimensions calls for 9.03mm which is about .3555″, so I’m sure either is fine.
While we’re at it, don’t forget about the 9×25 Dillon, a 10mm case necked down to 9mm.
It’s funny how the market messes with the details isn’t it? All the projectiles I’ve seen and used are .355. I suppose this spec difference is somewhat like the ambiguity over how this cartridges headspaces (shoulder or case mouth)
I guess specs are just a guideline once people start tinkering 🙂
I never completely understood why I liked the 357 SIG so much, until now. The ability to create grape jelly black holes was the deal closer for me.
Orlando PD uses the Sig P226 chambered in 9mm.
Is that a fairly recent switch?
Had P226 and then P226R for many years. SWAT uses the 357 SIG. The orang county sheriffs office covers disney. It isnt in the city limits.
I know, I just couldn’t resist a cheap joke 🙂
Mr Toad’s Wild ride has been gone for years too. So sad
You are totally wrong about not being able to make .357 Sig brass out of .40 S&W. By running the .40S&W caser into the .357 Sig die, the case mouth is reduced in diameter, forcing the brass to flow into the neck, lengthening it. The finished case is only .005″ shorter than a factory .357 sig case. ALL of my .357 Sig Brass is made out of .40 S&W brass. It works perfectly.
I’m not “totally wrong” at all, read more carefully. I never said you couldn’t. I explained in detail why you shouldn’t. It will end up shorter, but more importantly, .40 S&W brass is not strong enough to “safely” deal with average of 5,000 psi higher pressure than .40 S&W. Just because you did it and haven’t blown up your gun (yet) doesn’t mean it’s eternally safe. People have also survived going over Niagra Falls in a barrel, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
An additional few thousandths of brass is not going to make your case any stronger. That pressure will tear through much thicker brass. I agree with you, however because reloading isn’t a “close enough” type activity.
I agree totally with Tom . Do you think the .223 & 5.56 cartridge are the same? No they are not the 5.56 is thicker and is loaded to higher pressures. Thickness does matter.
The real difference between the .223 and 5.56 is not so much higher pressure as loaded. The throat and overall round specs are different. The .223 throat is tighter and shorter. Some 5.56 rounds have overall longer length. When the longer overall 5.56 is put into the .223 tighter throat there is no extra room for the bullet to jump or start moving properly, causing the higher pressure spike than normal to get the bullet moving.
An additional few thousandths? .010 versus .015 is significant. That’s a 33% increase in thickness. Engineering wise let’s just say, it’s a huge increase in being able to handle chamber pressure.
Not to be one of those guys, but going from .010 to .015 is 50% increase, not a 33% increase. Going from .015 down to .010 would be a 33% decrease.
But I do agree with your point.
Agree with you Mark. My homemade cases using Lee die set come out exactly as spec for .357 Sig. The scuba tank comparison by Tom doesn’t compare apples to apples. A better comparison would be the .250 Savage and .22-250. Both the same brass but one is 20,000 psi higher than the other. Ammo makers just want you to pay more and it’s all based on supply and demand.
I do not know if this is true or not, but I once asked a Texas State Trooper why the .357 Sig was chosen for them. His answer was because the round will penetrate auto glass like windshields and side windows reliably from any angle. He said other rounds will ricochet at certain angles. A .357 revolver will do the same, but this a semi-auto with higher capacity than a revolver. I don’t have the funds to test this theory, but find it an interesting idea.
Velocity baby!
I have tested the windshield statement thoroughly and yes it punches through very well from inside or out. A 125gr GDHP at 1350 will punch through a driver door with window rolled down, center console, inside passenger door panel and rolled down passenger glass, leaving a fist size dent in the passenger door. At 1425fps, the proper velocity before the chickens at the factory watered it down, I bet it would punch clear through. It will punch a trunk, back seat and continue into the front seat. It also decimates a trunk latch better than a .223. It will punch a windshield and depending on windshield deflection angle usually go through the front seat to the back. For the old school .38 super guys, it puts a big hole in an aluminum or cast iron head or block. Thanks to the hillbilly for dumping the intact ford taurus in the sand dunes behind my house so I could try all this out. As for the guys afraid of over penetration on a perp, hit where you are supposed to and quit fretting, two holes bleeding out are better then one. Blood loss is what kills, not hydrostatic shock with handguns. It is not a .357 mag, but damn it is nice when one needs to punch holes in vehicles or a perp behind cover.
I’m sorry to have to report the passing of Mr.Toad’s Wild Ride.
Disney did away with it years ago.
Also Disney World is not within Orlando P D’s jurisdiction
(1) The 357 sig is a good round, no questions asked.
(2) Independence mo, PD carries 229 sig’s in 357 sig.
(3) The officers hate the round!
(4) There is to much recoil, it’s to sharp and heavy, for most of the smaller officers to handle!
(5) The noise is not good when the 357 sig is fired!
(6) The PD has had a real issue with pass through’s, when they have shot suspects!
(7) They have had several officer involved shootings, with pour results stopping the suspects!
(8) They have had only one fatal shooting, that I know of, and they fired more than one round, to do the job.
(9) Most of the shootings, the bullet passed completely through, and not stopping the suspect, this then required other
methods to stop the suspect!
(10) I do not know exact number involved shootings, for Independence Mo, I just know there has been several.
(11) I don’ t the kind of, type of, weight of or the brand of ammo, they use!
All that info has a big affect on how the bullets perform’s, in the suspect’s body!!!
(12) The 357 sig has to much power, in a urban area’s, where you risk hitting a bystanders.
(13) You would be better suited using a 40 cal, the have less recoil, less boom, better control by the officer’s, (big and small)
less risk of passing through the suspect, and happy officers’s when they shoot their guns!
(!4) The cost of ammo is a problem with the 357 sig is very high, compared to the 40 cal, for larger cities.
(15) The 357 sig is best suited for rural officers, and officers that don’t work in urban area’s!!!!!!
It sounds like a lot of the points you make are related to bullet design/ammo selection.
All I know is a 180 grain 40 S&W projectile in my P229 has significantly more perceived recoil than a 125 grain 357Sig round out of the same gun.
The Sig is just about a twin for a 357magnum with 125gr bullets which is a known fight stopper. Funny how you think the 40 is better. Recoil is just about the same with sig recoil just a little faster. Pass though is a bullet problem. If the Sig didn’t stop bad guys it might of been from shot placement. I wonder if most PD’s take the lowest bid on some HP bullets. The 41magnum got a bad rap years ago because the cops used wrong bullet/load. Also sounds like the cops don’t have enough range time.
Your last sentence was the smartest one I’ve heard. Popo should have to qualify quarterly and should also have a 1000 rd quarterly ammo draw that must be used. And any other ammo they shot they should get a bonus of a dime per round in their paycheck. Ain’t much but better than nothing. Plus shooting is good for mental stress.