The PTR 51P, a .308 pistol, is about as big as a pistol gets.
PTR-91 51P PDW at PTR91.com
PTR-91 51P PDW at Atlantic Firearms
The PTR 51P PDW is as large a pistol as any person should really consider carrying. Maybe Andre the Giant could manage a bigger pistol, but the 51P is pushing ergonomic limits. This pistol is big, and when I say big I mean it’s huge! This pistol comes in at 23.5 inches in the stock form, and stretches out to nearly 30 inches with the SB47 brace attached to the rear. It weights 7.5 pounds in its stock form. With the addition of the brace and a side-folder mechanism, the pistol comes in closer to 9 pounds.
The overall length of the pistol and its weight makes one handed operation cumbersome. But it isn’t impossible.
But big is a relative term. The 51P PDW sports an 8 inch match grade barrel with a 1/10 twist. Its overall length is an astonishing 23 inches. Still, we all know this isn’t a gun you can lug around for concealed carry. While not impossible, concealment is difficult. The 51P is relatively easy to conceal inside a vehicle or inside a building, and that’s where the 51P shines. This pistol is for the person looking for a personal defense weapon (PDW) without all the hassle of the paper work associated with a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR). And it is a great platform for the person looking for the easiest way to build that SBR.
For me the appeal of the 51P PDW is the availability of firepower in a compact package. Like most things that are insanely powerful, shooting the .308 form a short barrel is also a lot of fun. So the 51P makes a great range gun, too. The PDW in its un-braced form is cumbersome and impractical at best, but that quickly goes out the window when you attach a SB47 arm brace to the rear. With the extra stability, the pistol comes to life. Without the brace, it is more of a why-the-hell-not?! fun gun. Yet when you add a folding brace to the gun, it becomes a viable defensive firearm that’s ideal for moving in and out of confined spaces.
As far as truck guns go, this is a beast. It is short enough to move in the cab, and more range than a pistol caliber carbine.
The .308 is one hell of a round. The .308 round this pistol fires has to be one of the most attractive things about this gun. At the same time, it is (with out a doubt) one characteristic of this weapon that worries me. .308 is a round designed for long-range engagements. I never really felt it had much place in the PDW world, a world often defined by suburban and urban settings, and high population densities.
I feel more comfortable with pistol caliber carbines in any situation that has a a potential for collateral damage. Inside a house, for example, I worry about rounds punching through walls. That being said, the moment I step outside my door, the .308 no longer seems like overkill. This pistol is capable of making shots out to 200 meters, realistically. Past that, I’d rather be working with magnified optics and an actual stock. But with a real stock, the 51P isn’t a P anymore, and we’d have a much different set of expectations. The Century brace is a solid option for an improvised stock—but it isn’t a stock. It offers speed and flexibility, but it doesn’t offer the ergonomics of solid surfaces and optimal cheek-welds.
Easy to break down and clean, the PTR 51P is easy to maintain.
This pistol’s ability to turn cover into mere concealment, though, is invaluable in a situation where this PDW would be utilized. The .308 is able to punch through obstacles, and most vehicles, and can carry enough momentum through to prove effective on soft targets. It’s safe to say you will not be under gunned if you did decide to employ this firearm in a defensive manner. Granted, the 8″ barrel on the 51P gives up some velocity, but we’ll touch on that below.
For me, this pistol spend much of its life behind the seat of my truck. When it isn’t there, it will be at the range blowing through targets and blowing peoples preconceived notion of what a pistol truly can be.
Ergonomics
Did I mention that the pistol is big? It it based on the H&K G3, which is already a big rifle. The 51P’s closest relative would be the H&K G3K. The G3K’s 12 inch barrel makes it a highly mobile battle rifle.
Holding up the 51P is a challenge. The brace makes it a bit easier, as you have extra leverage.
PTR-91 makes fantastic H&K clones. From any distance, this pistol looks like its ancestors. Yet the closer you look, the more the gun deviates from the formula. The barrel length is cut down to an all time low of 8 inches. The magazine release is transformed into a button, and the claw mount is replaced with a welded on 1913 rail. And of course, the stock is missing.
The loss of the magazine paddle will be a blow to H&K traditionalists. It restricts function and breaks form. Getting the magazine out and back may seems cumbersome at first, even worse with the brace wrapped around your arm–but after your first few attempts it quickly becomes rudimentary.
The 51P has a mag button instead of a paddle.
The gun runs dry and you hear that click we all dread hearing at the end of every string we fire. Remove your check weld and raise the barrel to the air. Muscle the charging handle out of its tight den and lock it to the rear. Then with your firing had, let go of the pistol grip and hit the magazine release button while ripping the magazine from the well. Next, find that pistol grip again. Rock a magazine in the pistol with your support hand and karate chop the charging handle. The gun is now ready to get back into the fight.
After your initial attempts, loading gets easier. You can pick up real speed once you build a little muscle memory. It takes me around 2 seconds to reload this pistol. Behind cover, that’s less of an issue. And I’ll make the sacrifice for the benefits that come from the 30 caliber ballistics.
And the integral 1913 rail is a logical addition, and one we can all celebrate. Mounting optics is easy. Claw mounted optics, and add-on ails are not cheap additions to the G3 platform. Having the rail built into the gun is a big deal, and can save you $100-$200 bucks.
When the mag is in place, chop the bolt back into place.
The 8 inch barrel means you can’t use standard H&K91 handguards. Yet the brains at PTR and Atlantic Firearms have found a way to utilize standard MP5/H&K94 handguards on the pistol. This means Accessories are easily accessible. Lights, railed handguards, angled grips are all made possible by aftermarket options designed for the MP5/H&K94.
Besides the rail, the 51P PDW is not a pistol with many modern innovations. It does not have ambidextrous controls, it does not lock open on the last round fired from a magazine, and the PDW lacks the modern ergonomics of the AR platform. Expect it to be difficult to run this gun at first. But stick with it.
Once you get over some of the pistol quirks, you’ll have a viable platform. The PDW is a devastating weapon. It is built off of a proven action that has fought and won many a battle. It is not intended to comfort you with gadgets or doodads that make the gun easy to run. The 51P is designed to work, and to stick, more or less, to a proven formula. In this regard, it is like an AK. And just as we see in the AK pistol market, these guns are getting smaller and smaller. These rifles are turning into great personal defense options.
The weight of the 51P helps with the control. It shoots flat.
Shooting the 51P
When I first took the PDW to the range, I Couldn’t wrap my head around why I would need this “pistol.” I couldn’t figure out why I would want to settle for what I first saw as shortcomings. Then it hit me–what other .308 on the market has the proven record of the H&K G3 platform? The AR10 isn’t as reliable. The FAL isn’t available in a non-SBR configuration, and the M14/1A isn’t nearly as short. It’s also safe to say none of its competition comes close to offering a viable .308 pistol at a price that’s half way competitive.
So it began to make more sense. Should the 51P PDW have different controls, or more up to date features? If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it. The gun works in its natural form, so we have to train around that and learn how to run the gun. In its bare-bones pistol form, this learning curve is going to be exceptionally steep. But when you add the brace to the back end, learning the 51P will be like learning any of PTR’s rifles.
The PTR 51P has typical H&K sights. The rear is a round drum, and the front post is well protected within the larger ring. Fast and accurate, all in one.
Despite its awkward size, I find shooting the PTR is easy enough. There are no rough edges to cut your hands on. The recoil is moderate for a .308. There’s enough kick to remind you that you’re sending 30 caliber slugs down range, but not enough to make rapid-fire impossible. The birdcage style flash hider does a good job of spreading the immense fireballs from rounds designed for much longer barrels.
Speaking of the fireballs…. How much velocity is lost from the 8″ barrel? 147 grain M80 7.62 x 51 should put up about 2,700 FPS at the muzzle from an 18″ barrel. The PTR-51P’s 8″ barrel drops that down by about 400 FPS. This is a serious detriment to the effective range of the .308, and makes the bullet’s drop at any distance an insurmountable obstacle to accuracy. But a 147 grain FMJ moving leaving the barrel at 2,300 is still devastating at close range. And the round penetrates much better than lighter 55 grain .223 rounds, and a better than a 7.62 x 39.
PTR-91 builds kickass guns that are known for their accuracy. With the 51P’s iron sights, you can expect some loose groups. Add the brace, and they’ll tighten up. The pistol is just too heavy to expect any long distance performance without the stabilization that comes form the brace. I got groups in the 2.5 to 3 inch range at 100 yards with the brace. Without, the same shots were in the 5-6 inch range. That said, the 8″ barrel is stabilizing rounds. With the wide variety of .308 available, finding the right round should be easy.
The more I shoot the 51P, the more I like it. It helps to have a range you can drive on–as you’ll be able to run realistic drills.
At the end
All in all the PTR 51P PDW is a pistol with allot to offer. It has its drawbacks, but the 51P will undoubtedly overcomes them with sheer firepower. Other accessories are available that make the pistol easier to operate, like magazine latches and pistol grip assemblies with more easily accessed controls. But if you are looking for rifle caliber firepower in a compact package, and are willing to work with a gun, the 51P will serve you well.
The fine folks at Atlantic Firearms have exclusive rights to the pistol, so shoot over there for more information. And for those of you living in the less-than-free states of America, Atlantic offers compliant options too. The pistol alone sells for $1,069.
[full_width][/full_width]
[one_half]
There are times when the 51P feels big.
[/one_half][one_half_last]
Other times the 51P feels just right. It is all a matter of perspective, I think, and setting.
[/one_half_last]
[one_half]
With Atlantic’s folding stock adapter, the gun becomes even more versatile.
[/one_half][one_half_last]
The Century brace is a must, in my opinion.
[/one_half_last]
[one_half]
The rear sight on the PTR 51P.
[/one_half][one_half_last]
The bolt, open.
[/one_half_last]
[one_half]
Practice reloads, even off the range. The learning curve there is steep.
[/one_half][one_half_last]
The appeal of the 51P is easy enough to see. It is a big fun gun, and just as effective when it actually counts.
[/one_half_last]
I had a few questions about my ptr pdw 91 .308 pistol if I put the 14in. Picatinny rail on it will it mess with anything towards the front of the gun like with the cocking Handel or will it be clear from everything I know I can get the 6in rail but I think the 14in would have a good look to it .also any one have a good idea on what kind of scope to get was thinking like barska 4X28 with green lazer?
What is the practical purpose for the weapon . Its not a pistol . All this weapon does is give the gun haters more ammo to take away our guns .
Looking at my copy of the Bill of Rights…nope not seeing where its the Governments problem WHAT KIND of
arms I choose. What I see in this thread are ‘badge lickers” and people who fear freedom. GET OVER IT….or
be a slave….your call.
as far as knocking a 308 sbr/pistol…. well those comments are just too dumb to even respond. You dont like it…ok.. but to say it has no place is foolish. I have two shorties in 556. I have had many PTRs. It is very reasonable to desire a 308 as an urban short gun or a vehicle gun. 556 out of a short barrel is awesome….308? how is that not even better.
There is no way that this is a handgun. It at best is a small entry type rifle designed for close quarters. I do like the fact that the breach does not stay open after the last round has been fired. I consider this an extreme hazard for it takes seconds longer to reload and engage the target. However I do like the choice of the .308 cal round.
A pistol? Knock it off. Come on.
What NFA, Mitch, NOTaDUMMY, and ImportGuy said about this dummy trying to be a writer as bad as a SealTeam Six member… About as much chance for one as the other.
Way to go …….. Show everyone what we try so hard to keep close, and without controversy….. You Soooo awesome.
This is NOT NEW! It has been on the market for almost 2 years!
I should probably shoot MYSELF for making this comment, but, alas, I must! And I only do so because you are a writer, or aspire to be. You mentioned a steep learning curve. A steep learning curve is one where very LITTLE time transpires from knowing nothing, to knowing it ALL about a given subject. The curve is steep because if you graph known knowledge on the vertical Y-axis and time on the horizontal X-axis, the quicker you learn, the steeper the slope of the curve. What I believe you mean, from the context of the comment, is this is an extremely SHALLOW learning curve. Now, I realize that “steep” sounds a lot more daunting than “shallow,” but you could always rephrase, and say “you can practice until the cows come home, and still not have it mastered,” or something to that effect…
I’d pass on this one. Want a short .308 that will shoot rings around this thing? Go RFB bullpup with the 18 inch barrel.
I bought a PTR PDW two years ago and couldn’t be happier with it. I purchased a few thousand rounds of the blue DAG training ammo and a lightweight training bolt. I had it trimmed down by a local gunsmith so it matched the shorter stroke. Wow, what a blast! Very little recoil, amazing blast and an entertaining 100 foot plinker that absolutely pulverizes targets. Don’t let the internet naysayers fool you. The German training ammo is a ton of fun with a dedicated bolt carrier. The SBR is my Christmas present to myself just as soon as I can scrounge a few extra bucks for the stamp.
Wow There no wonder the anti gunners have so much progress with the gun laws.Together we stand divided we fall. Hey Herman I meet a lot of people like you that goes to the range to make fun of people instead of train. I dont care what type of gun you like,or what type of shooting you are into.Look it up the arm brace is legal,shouldered it is legal,the atf ruled on that.Maybe you guys are happy with single shoot,or shot gun but my 2nd amendment says the right to bear arms.So myself I like all guns,from six shooters to full autos.
that is not a pistol
What is the practical purpose for the weapon . Its not a pistol . All this weapon does is give the gun haters more amo to take away our guns . I’m sure the drug dealers and all other bad guys will love it . I have a 357 , 44 460 and 500 . When I shot any animal with any of these their dead . How much more dead can your 308 pistol make them. Waist of my time reading the first few words about this so called pistol.
“2400fps at mussel with no hold -over”. “Dan” is apparently shooting sea food. A friend of mine built a .308 XP-100 30 years ago for silhouette. It had no other practical use but what a muzzle blast.
PTR’s are my favorite battle rifles.
Indestructible & reliable battle tanks.
Nostalgic and inexpensive, and chews up all types of .308 ammo (literally chews it up and Shites it out) A reloaders nightmare.
I like the genius of design and think it’s very cool to work on and operate, not a pussy’s rifle.
Black or green looks cool but wood is my favorite for that nostalgic factor, and for comfort with the heat of operation.
Making it a pistol ruins the shit out of all that I revere about the PTR.
Very “Hollywood” and I detest Hollywood.
Maybe someone really needs this application, but for the life of me, I can’t figure why.
I’ve had a pistol for years that is more powerful than this and is manageable and concealable. I had a CCW for it too. (Ok, so you need to be wearing a duster to hide it). 2400fps at mussel with no hold -over at 240 yards with a 200 grain bullet and is insanely accurate. It’s the S&W 460 XVR.
Well, I guess I’m the black sheep of the bunch – I’ve had one of these made by Vector Arms (now Kelley enterprises) for about 5-6 years – it actually is my go-to gun when something really needs a load of firepower (which ain’t very often). Out of 60 plus guns to choose from (including other pistol sized rifles like the AK47 Zastava) this is by far the most fun to shoot, for about 20 rounds anyway. After that the concussion from the blast gives me a headache. I mainly shoot mine with a short sling on my right shoulder – pushing forward makse it quite steady and accurate (no 3″ groups at 100 yards though). Just last week I found another Vector on GB loaded with accessories and bought it. I got me a full stock Cetme as well for long shots. I plan to own one final piece like this and that is a Kelley/Vector V-51EK .308 pistol with a 5″ (yes five inch) barrel, vertical foregrip, and folding/collapsing stock – I plan to register it as a PDW as long as my new local Sheriff will sign the papers. I am a FFL dealer and make lots of deliveries personally and feel this is the perfect back-up to keep in a briefcase – either this or a Serbu 12 ga. They ain’t cheap but they are literally hand made by Kelley so I expect it to be what I want. For all ya’ll that don’t want one, okay – that’s fine. Don’t hate the rest of us who do. If I could afford it I’d have about 10 of them.
Actually a SBR would be and excellent choice for a PDW, a truck gun if your living in the country, plus a a home defense weapon, if the situation may arise for you to have this type of firepower. Why you may ask, first its short and easily maneuverable, if your not strong enough, grow stronger, to handle this platform. Second its very deceptive, the main reason the SAS carried short barreled rifles in Vietnam, other than the significant firepower, was the sound they made; giving them a psychological edge in a firefight. Its not very hard to realize when a FN_FAL with a 30 round magazine and a short barrel is introduced into a kill zone, that the enemy knows there in trouble, even if only 4-6 men are involved in a well designed hasty ambush. The only problem I could foresee would be a brilliant flash at night due to the fireball this weapon would produce, but there are ways to tame and counteract these moments, simply by experimenting with different flash hiders and powders, and never forget to carry a simple sling, which may save your life, have enough ammo encase there is more than one assailant…
SAS??? VIETNAM???
Not a new story, these have been around for years with a much cooler fore grip. I got mine from CDNN for $900, more than that and it isn’t worth it IMHO.
I’m gonna call BS on the 3″ grouping at 100 yards. Show me the paper. I had a HK91 cut down to 8″ many years ago, then welded a shroud on it to make it 16″ legal, and the accuracy was complete crap. Key-holed plenty of rounds, and group size was more like 8″ at 25 yards or worse. You just can’t get the bullet stabilized in 8″ of barrel, it doesn’t fully accelerate, and the pressure behind the bullet is still high enough that when it exits the barrel the gasses accelerate past the slow-moving bullet and wobble it, even flip it end-over-end. Only solution the gunsmith suggested was “hand load with just enough powder to cycle the rifle.”
Horrible, $2500 mistake. (Though luckily, there was a greater fool who bought it so I broke even).
Has this guy not heard of the 300 Blackout round for power PDWs??
And I also call BS on the 2 second reload. I want to see that YouTube clip! I practiced a LOT on my HK91, 93, and 94, and it was the main reason I eventually abandoned this HK platform for the AR–hand’s down the more efficient system for mag changes and malfunction clearance. Let’s go over it:
0. Timer starts at last round fired:
1. Reacquire sight picture and fire again (no slide lock/ bolt lock to clue you in)–click
2. Support hand goes forward, pulls back the bolt and locks it back
3. Support hand goes to the mag well to hold the gun
4. Weapon hand releases to press mag release, mag drops
5. Weapon hand goes back to the grip to hold the gun
6. Support hand finally goes for a magazine, brings it back and inserts it into magwell
—this is where the AR starts it’s clock (reach and eject simultaneously)!—
7. After inserting new magazine, support hand goes up to karate chop the charger–AR doesn’t have this step
8. Support hand goes forward to hand guard and reacquire sight picture–bang!
Sorry, but a 2 second reload just isn’t in the cards, even if you know it’s coming up. I’d love to eat my words, let’s see the video.
ALL of my G3 type weapons do about 2 MOA with irons or Eotechs. Either your weapon build or YOU are to fault
90% of the time it’s operator error, as I’ve demonstrated many times when guys complained about inaccuracy, taking their gun and shooting tighter groups with it
What a bunch of IDIOTS… Calling this a pistol
Feature Articles
A .308 PISTOL? THE PTR 51P–NEW GUN REVIEW
A .308 pistol? I can guess what you’re thinking. But we’re using the term pistol quite technically in this review. The PTR 51P is a .308 pistol. It is also a devastating personal defense weapon capable of dominating close quarters work. With the addition of an arm brace, this pistol comes to life. … ( Click Here to Read More )
Copy of your email
I’m a big PTR fan and for my PDW I went with a custom build in 7.62 x 39. LOVE IT! Cheeper to shoot than x 51, less flash/recoil. ere are two pics..
http://www.use.com/images/s_5/2014_10_31_296_5d738e6690189bc9c78a_1.jpg?is=true&ps=true
http://www.use.com/images/s_5/2014_10_31_297_f6f36423ae10039d2711_1.jpg?is=true&ps=true
Ridiculous. Just because you can does not mean you should.
The ATF will have fum with this!!!
The right click on the mouse gives you a spell check
Rudimentary means simple as in primitive or undeveloped, not simple as in easy. Use of the thesaurus to jazz up your article can be a double edged sword.
Also, I agree with the other posters that articles like this only become fodder for the anti-gun crowd. Although it may seem silly, articles dealing with the murky zone between pistol and SBR should always take care to acknowledge the precarious legal situation, and stay well away from any mention or pictures of questionable use of these firearms.
To make this machine function with an 8″ barrel, the action HAS to be a delayed roller block.
Gas operated is just not going to work. The H&K action is perfectly suited for this and the platform choice is rock solid. This weapon is really a offense/defense weapon with that caliber. It will take down humans, defeat body armour, and punch thru a vehicle easily. You would NOT be out-gunned in an urban setting. Your survival rate would be quite good.
The projectile range choice in .308 is large. For someone like me, with EVERY long gun chambered in .308,
I’ll be getting one. BTW, .308 rounds WILL get cheaper in the upcoming years after the shortage from the “desert”
subsides and surplus begins to surface (ie: post Vietnam in the 70’s). Besides, who cares about $$$/round when the SHTF.
That’s what the gun is for. Another plus is a HK full auto-sear lowers (trigger group) can be obtained. Full-Auto from that gun would be amazing……….
Usually you see some a mix of comments, but in this case nobody is coming down on the good side.
First is the obvious implication that due to somebody building a 308 pistol, that now the ATF will go after “armor piercing” ammo. You know the same thing that happened when somebody came out with an AR pistol, then the pistol AKs. Great thanks, typical business thinking, the money they will make today, not what will happen down the line.
Second was pushing the envelope of the ‘brace’. Its not going to take long for the ATF to reconsider these things and be the end of that. When people use them as stocks, and not a brace, theres going to be a problem.
As an owner of a full sized one of these rifles, I am not really sure of the thinking or lack of it. Mine is incredibly loud as it is, with a full length barrel, what about when you need this thing in a hurry and dont have time for hearing protection? Nobody at the local range is going to be very friendly you go blasting this thing. This whole thing was a bad idea. Just one of those lets build it because we can, not because we should, or there is an actual market for it. Oh sure there will be those fascinated by cutting every weapon imaginable down to miniature size who just have to have one. But its not going to be a very big market. And in an effort to satisfy a few they will ruin things for everybody else. Great job PTR, yay.
EXACTLY! As Todd and others have said, guns like this, accompanied by articles and pictures like this, will only give ATF more ammunition for more bans – ban the “pistol” ammo, ban the forearm brace. And for what – the world’s most impractical firearm? At least don’t compound the problem by showing pictures of illegal use of the brace
“At least don’t compound the problem by showing pictures of illegal use of the brace”
Hey genius, there is no such thing as an “illegal use of the brace”, as long as you’re allowed to use a gun you can legally use it any way you want.
I *LOVE* this thing! But I think I’m going to wait for the new Browning M2 50 caliber pistol with the 4″ barrel and “arm” brace. Yea, maybe it weighs 78 pounds and is 3 feet long but it will look so badass when I show it to my militia and prepper buddies!
More likely your your fellow obama lover buddies
I very much appreciate the write up and the subject content and evaluation are certainly credible. The 51P would
be fun to have but impractical in my world – more expensive ammo is a problem.
My main reason for comment is the immense number of spelling and grammatical errors in the article. There is
no question that Dave is extremely knowledgeable and highly experienced in his field. However, the conveyance
of knowledge is less accepted when the presentation is overwhelmed with spelling errors and grammatical mistakes.
Even though a good spell check will catch a significant number of errors, the rest need to be solved by a good
proof reader. My suggestion is that any author should do his own proof read a couple of times (always read
aloud), and then hand off the article to a couple of other educated friends to help catch the problems.
Good article content – just need to clean up the errors so that the article carries a higher degree of credibility.
This tends to be an ongoing problem in the gun industry that we all should politely and courteously try to
solve.
Cool factor? NO! Practical factor? NO! Ridiculous factor? Oh Yes! So what’s next, a 50 BMG in a Judge or Governor??
Cool factor? NO! Practical factor? NO! Ridiculous factor? Oh Yes! So what’s next, a 50 BMG in a Judge or Governor??
Yes – check it out – http://www.meyette.us/50BMG.jpg
About 20 years ago I was sitting at a gun show table with some friends and a gentleman came by with some photos of a single action revolver in 50BMG I didn’t get it at first, looked like a SAA with a muzzle brake; the main clue was a disproportionately tiny grip. Then I mentally zoomed it up to the size it had to be and realized what it was.
“Yes Virginia, there is a 50BMG SAA and its been around for at least 20 years!”
Just keep posting photos of shooting the “arm brace” off the shoulder and the ATF will ban ownership. Think that can’t happen ? Think the 7n6 ammo and Saiga bans.
Go buy you a dozen before the ban then. If you havent figured it out yet their goal is a total ban on all firearms. Its handguns, ammo, Saturday night specials, mail order rifles , machine guns, so called assault rifles, sniper rifles till they are all gone. Figured it out yet?
Rick wins first prize. I bet you scaredicats and chicken littles will be of little assistance on the Day, which is coming as surely as the dawn, just as it did in 1775
Please hang on a sec… There, I’ve added you to my whacked out nutbar book. Thank you for “uncloaking” long enough to your neighbors to take note.
This is an hk 51 with a different butt. Nothing new here.
So by making a .308 pistol, doesn’t this now make it illegal to import steel core .308 as it will now technically be able to be considered a hand gun caliber, thus classifying it as AP. See *what happened to 7.62×39 & 5.45×39 ammo*. Thanks PTR.
These guy’s are ruining it for all of us. The ATF is looking to ban imported ammo and all firearms yet these over eager beavers hasten the day for the ATF to come down with new bans and rules. Absolutely brilliant !
Gun owners are going to ruin it. Why dont you blame it on the unconstitutional ATF. Its scary to own a firearm in America now days you never know what can happen anymore because of the government corruption, inconsistencies etc. And the reason we are like this is because of cowards like you
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Someone else did that a while ago. It’s already illegal to import/still 308 armor piercing rounds. You can only buy the projectiles, no rounds due to this pistol issue.
Btw you ever heard of contenders, xp100 and so on. Many 308 pistols out there.
Fun to shoot? Looks to be a blast! But I question the practicality of a “Fungun” that shoots a round that costs a DOLLAR OR MORE per round to shoot! It’s no secret that AR-15 and AK-47 pistols are already pushing the envelope of personal self defense weapons, especially for HOME defense applications. Especially the AK-47 versions…… Those rounds let loose and just keep on going, by design. There’s a very LIMITED application for AK pistols in the home defense arena purely from an over-penetration status as it IS……
But CMON….. A friggin .308 cal home defense weapon? Completely unusable in a domestic city or urban environment. Ditto for a suburban, townhouse, condo or apartment scenario as well. Rural folks would have a blast with this, but same common sense restrictions apply for indoor use. So, it goes outside…… At THAT point, you may as well have the RIFLE version.
Further, because of the shorter barrel, it neuters the .308 round in velocity. Add to that, the shorter sighting distance between the front and rear sights, practical accuracy goes bye bye, and it completely nullifies the entire purpose of the .308 round….. So here we have a long range bullet ensconced into a short range firearm platform? The logic completely escapes me…. Cool factor? Yup. Practical factor? Nope…..
I see this as a novelty piece, something for a goof, or to chew the fat over with friends at the range. North of that, I can garner NO justification for dropping over a grand on this, unless of course, you got cash to burn and just dig novelties. I simply do not see it shining in ANY application in which it is brought to bear, either outside OR especially inside…. My humble thinkins only of course…..
NOT in my gun safe!!
Thanks for giving the ATF plenty of reason to and pictures to screw with the arm brace. It is not meant to be shouldered, and articles, and pictures like this, will only help to get it banned.
WE HAVE A WINNER!!
I am with you on this one. Don’t “poke the bear” and get it banned by misuse as was done in this article. Several felonies in photos.
It’s use or display at public ranges might likely get you arrested….in spite of the BATF recent ruling that they don’t consider a pistol with arm brace that is shoulder fired illegal.( adding an adjustable stock to it will cause it to become illegal) Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Same applies for those fake suppressors AKA “silencers”. Only fosters more impressions that all gun owners are dangerous nuts… BTW I would like to see all restrictions on handguns, rifles, and semi-auto/full auto dropped, but these are the parameters in which we have to live.
uh, no. wrong. ‘Local’ law enforcement have no authority/responsibility to enforce FEDERAL firearms regulations. 99% of LEO’s are completely ignorant of most NFA or GCA laws; speaking from 20+ years of experience myself, including 4 years on an ATF task force…
Local authorities are also ignorant that they have no authority/responsibility to enforce FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS
308 pistol……..riiiight……….
There are no pics above of this “pistol” being fired with one or both hands only on the pistol grip, so I have my doubts as if this 51P can be fired accurately with only holding one or both hands on the grip. As you probably guessed by my name, I have a Kel-Tec PLR-16 and I can fire this gun with only one hand with accuracy. Just type in plr-16 one handed on youtube for plenty of vidoes of others shooting the Kel-Tec one-handed if you doubt my claim. The PLR-16 is 5 inches shorter and the 5.56 Nato is a smaller round compared to the 51P pistol and the ammo it fires. But, no excuse. To me, and I am always open to criticism nor do I think what I say is absolute, a pistol should be able to be held with one or both hands at the same location, or grip, to be fired. At least that is the given definition of a pistol that I just now looked up on the internet.
Don’t get me wrong, though. I would love to have this PTR 51P. Who the hell cares if it can be held with one hand or two at the pistol grip? I am over 6 feet tall and could stand to lose some weight, so I could probably shoot this 51P one-handed, or I sure as hell would try and have fun doing it. I love guns like this, why do you think I bought a PLR-16? I couldn’t give a shit about “mainstream” crap and am not a typical consumer, so I am always in the market for stuff like this. Sure, most prefer average or wimpy crap and that is fine for them. But for the rest of us, it is like the song from the iconic German metal band ‘Accept’, “Balls to the Wall.”
The PLR-16 is in it’s way just as stupid as this gun. Then when you have a PLR-16 owner saying “Sure, most prefer average or wimpy crap and that is fine for them. But for the rest of us, it is like the song from the iconic German metal band ‘Accept’, “Balls to the Wall” You realize the big gun is probably making up for insufficiency in other departments.
There are no pics above of this “pistol” being fired with one or both hands only on the pistol grip, so I have my doubts as if this 51P can be fired accurately with only holding one or both hands on the grip. As you probably guessed by my name, I have a Kel-Tec PLR-16 and I can fire this gun with only one hand with accuracy. Just type in plr-16 one handed on youtube for plenty of vidoes of others shooting the Kel-Tec one-handed if you doubt my claim. The PLR-16 is 5 inches shorter and the 5.56 Nato is a smaller round compared to the 51P pistol and the ammo it fires. But, no excuse. To me, and I am always open to criticism nor do I think what I say is absolute, a pistol should be able to be held with one or both hands at the same location, or grip, to be fired. At least that is the given definition of a pistol that I just now looked up on the internet.
Don’t get me wrong, though. I would love to have this PTR 51P. Who the hell cares if it can be held with one hand or two at the pistol grip? I am over 6 feet tall and could stand to lose some weight, so I could probably shoot this 51P one-handed, or I sure as hell would try and have fun doing it. I love guns like this, why do you think I bought a PLR-16? I couldn’t give a shit about “mainstream” crap and am not a typical consumer, so I am always in the market for stuff like this. Sure, most prefer average or wimpy crap and that is fine for them. But for the rest of us, it is like the song from the iconic German metal band ‘Accept’, “Balls to the Wall.”
I’ll tell you what, GI freakin’ Joe, come break into my home and as I unload some 5.56 Nato jhp’s into your dumb ass, try telling me then how stupid the PLR-16 is. The PLR-16 is actually a great gun for varmint control and is a great gun to carry when concealment is not much of a concern. But, that was not what I was referring to. Guns like the PLR-16 and PTR 51P are rare guns that people buy more for want versus need. Sure, I have plenty of “practical” guns, so to speak. But guns like these are “For the hell of it” type of guns. You are such a narrow-minded idiot who would not understand that concept and you think your little .380 pocket pistol is quite something and that we should all be jealous of that. When I was talking about not me not worrying about mainstream crap and not being a typical consumer, I meant that I don’t typically buy something only because people like you say something is good. If something works for me, I buy it regardless of popular consumer yea or nay. So, the next time you want to make a comment and think you are really making a point, which you so miserably failed here to do so, think twice about it, then take your mouth to shutty town, or in this case, your keyboard. Seems to me that you are the one that is insufficient in the brain department.
Aside from the “cool” factor, a .308 pistol is idiotic with the laws as they currently are. I would rather be able to buy armor piercing .308 ammo than have a loud, heavy, cumbersome and inaccurate .308 pistol. What a stupid gun.
Haven’t you heard holding that ‘not a stock’ against your shoulder makes it an SBR now? 🙂
NFA, you are correct. I see several pics in this article that show people committing felonies. I would recommend taking them down. The BATF, the fed agency, not the convenience store, has determined that putting the brace to the shoulder as a stock, is NOT LEGAL.
how silly is it that the gun is legal.. but the method of shooting is illegal. something defies logic there.
if the gun is legal.. it should not matter how someone shoots it.. that is like saying a gun is a machine gun if someone can pull the trigger at a certain speed?
a lot of the gun laws are just plain dumb.. we can all argue till we are blue in the face at to what is legal and not legal under what circumstances.. but even different judges will give you a different answer. As long as we can legally buy it.. it should be legal.
This guy is a want to be cop looks like a jerk.
You look like a troll !
This guy is a want to be cop looks like a jerk.
first thing i thought of when i saw him
These are the guys we make fun of when we go to the range.
This guy and this firearm are some of the reasons we have rabid anti gun people. A .308 “pistol” with a “arm” brace is even ridiculous to gun nuts (a term I use to describe even myself) and will only inflame the anti’s more. Firearms like this and the “Sargent Slaughter wanna be” shooter will do way more harm than good in the fight to retain our firearm rights. Bad Show.
I tend to disagree. Most anti-gun people are “hoplophobes”, in that they are afraid of guns, period. They dislike what they are afraid of, and they are afraid of something they have no experience with. Hoplophobes tend to be naïve, immature, and reactionary.
I don’t like giving the hoplophobes an excuse for their behavior by pointing to a legal gun owner. The hoplophobes are irrational people, and it is not any law-abiding gun-owner’s fault that the hoplophobes are phobic and have emotionally unbalanced behaviors.
Actually; people like you are the reason for anti gunners effectiveness. You don’t shoot it or personally appreciate it so you denigrate the person who does. Having a sig brace or even a barrel of a particular length has nothing to do with shootings. Stick up for gun owners no matter thier gun of interest. You and your ilk belong at an Obama convention rather than on a gun website.
Ass-kissing toolbags like “veeguy” will throw the Second Amendment under the bus in the hope that they will be allowed to keep their “sporting” toys.
“Veeguy” is the problem, not the solution.
With your thoughts, we better stick with cap guns and paint them pink so they dont look real. LOL The inflamed anti-gun crowd is inflamed already. Killing people is what riles them up so as long as he doesnt do that…..this post is irrelevant to the anti-gun discussion.
And I love the guys who argue that posting the vid creates problems…..thats right, lets crawl in a hole and hide cause they will help so much…. My kid used to hide his head under a towel or bed as though I couldnt see the rest of him. That is your logic. you are already submitting to the anti-gunners and they have won the battle of your mind- you are afraid and that is a bad place to negotiate from.
Did they change photos? I think there a couple guys. One is wearing jeans, black t-shirt and a black ball cap.
I can’t help but wonder what kind of muzzle velocity a reloader could achieve by using a faster burning pistol-type powder.
Factory .308 rounds are loaded for use in a rifle length barrel. By creating a round dedicated to use in a 8″ barrel “pistol”, you should be able to regain some of the lost velocity. Y/N ?
I can’t help but think that the 7.62×39 still would have been a better platform choice. Once someone has decided to do reloads on the .308, a faster burning load with the same amount of powder is going to challenge the chamber’s integrity and we’re almost back to where we started with their argument against the 7.62×39, but the 7.62×39 already starts out with a lighter bullet; all it really needs is the right amount of powder and appropriate barrel twist. You could say the same for the .308 cartridges, but then all you have are heavier bullets with more powder, loaded into longer shell casings.
I also have a Kel-Tec PLR-16 and, while a fun gun to shoot and reasonably accurate, you never want to accidentally forget your mouse ears. These guns, these rifle calibers on a pistol platform, basically need their own ammo and, with respect to the PTR-51P, I’d figure that means one separate .308 load for the pistol and another load for my Remington 700. So, unless one is inclined to do some serious reloading experiments or wait until the manufacturer has come up with the info, this is just another interesting toy.
My two cents.
My 7.62 x 39 is linked way down at the bottom of the comments.. I use the reloadable, boxer case Red Army Elite tumbling ’67 bullet for now. Once I get enough 1x brass I’ll load A Max bullets (Like Z Max) for storage ammo. The x 39 types are a pussycat to shoot, and although mine prefers synthetic mags like East Blocks and Tapcos, it also perks with the Pro Mag drum
I wouldn’t think so; a comparable dose of faster burning powder would put pressure in the “blow it all to hell” range. However, one might be able to tailor a reduced load of a faster powder to duplicate the 2300 fps, and considerably reduce the blast and flash from the powder being burnt unnecessarily, after the projectile is out of the tube.
Pistol loads are available in various reloading manuals for the Thompson Center Encore pistol .308. None of them use faster burning pistol powders designed for shorter pistol barrels due to excessive pressure issues. In the Encore pistol with a 15 inch barrel a 150 grain bullet averages about 2600 fps. If you subtract about 25-50 fps per 1 inch of barrel and another 100 fps for the gas action and muzzle brake a 150 grain bullet should be averaging about 2100 fps with max loads in this gun. With an 8 inch barrel you can expect to find a good bit of unburnt powder left in the barrel and more powder residue in the chamber. The .308 cartridge reaches peak efficiency beginning with barrel lengths of 20 inches or longer. The longer the barrel the longer the bullet stays in the barrel allowing for a more efficient burn.
The FAL .308 pistol from DSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3KXmsVD8k
Nice write-up on PTR
Thx.
How can you call this a pistol? Its more like a carbine or something . Just because it has an 8 inch barrel does not make it a pistol . It is a short barreled rifle ,Has a shoulder stock ,mag etc. What is the price on this stuff
it is a pistol because it doesn’t have a stock. that’s how the government defines it. if you add a stock(a real stock, not the sig arm brace) it is legally considered a short barreled rifle, which requires special paper work, a long wait, and a $200 tax stamp in order to buy. if it has a stock, but the barrel is at least 16 inches(and the minimum overall length) then it is just considered a regular rifle.
This is based more on the old German machine pistols from WWII. Zastava makes a type of this pistol as well. The Zastava is a Czech pistol that handles very nicely but is 7.62×39. I like that this shoots a 308 which is what I have for bolt action. So no new ammo to purchase.
Straight from the article. Last paragraph of the article…………’The fine folks at Atlantic Firearms have exclusive rights to the pistol, so shoot over there for more information. And for those of you living in the less-than-free states of America, Atlantic offers compliant options too. The pistol alone sells for $1,069′.
After looking over the laws on a short barrel verses pistol. Even with the arm brace, I would be danged if I would show a picture of myself holding that gun up to my shoulder and shooting. Better read up on the laws, because you might need an attorney when its over.